Project Celeste Review (The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly)

[Jeinx]

Aoeo Celeste Project Review
The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly

Hello fellow AOEO Fans! With all of the ups and downs of the games return, I wanted to take some time and review the game in its current state. We will be narrowing down the points in to three categories. The good, the Bad, and the Ugly. I hope you enjoy the read, and that in the end we can come together to make this great game project a success. Lets get started!
The Good:
I think we can all agree that the very best thing we have going is, the game is back! Those iconic quests you know and love are back, and as fun as ever. You can once again fight for glory on the PVP battlefield.
Most of the games original features are now functioning, including crafting, material production, milestones, visiting capital cities, a functioning friends list, and more, just like the good old days.
We have new quests. Yes, for those of us that like to finish every quest, we now have a bit more to work through before we are 100% and from the sounds of things, they are going to keep coming!
We have some pretty awesome web features. With aoeodb.net there to help us research gear and units, the forums to report issues, make suggestions, and find help or answers. It is looking lke we are going to have web to server options, opening up the possibility of an auction house! It sounds like there are more great things to come from this! Who can leave out the awesome discord server?
The global marketplace has been implimented! We never had this before and it is here! I was very nervous about the implimentation of the global marketplace. It seems all of my concerns were thought of! I am very happy about the way it works. It leaves selling/buying in trade chat still very relevant, and includes checks and balances to prevent a flood of items, and a list fee that is designed to encourage the seller to price an item to sell, to avoid being hit with a non refund for the listing. It may be a tad low causing some players comfort listing at higher prices, but it is a start. list fees can always be adjusted, and it is a huge convinience to find the exact item at the exact time you are looking for it.
I am truely excited to see what the future holds with some of the things the dev team is doing.
The Bad:
The Dev team seems very disorganized and uninformed. It is very odd when a game dev learns of a new implimentation when they are announced. People ask them questions, just to get the reply "I have no idea, you know as much as I do" The ideas the game devs have seem to have checks and balances to make sure exploits and game breaking ideas don't sneak through, But the same checks and balaces seem to be missing when it comes to Lead Dev ideas. The latest example being the rushed, and very sloppy divine gear released.
There seems to be an opinion of the lead devs that any gear determined to be the "best" needs to have a legendary version of it released. I am very concerned with the sloppy releases, and lack of checks and balances, and how it could lead to some real problems down the road. Such as;
1. Crafting If current "best" gear that is crafted gets replaced it could cause some major issues with crafting. If players do not see the value in crafting items to sell or equip, Not only is it possible to kill the need for crafting all together, but we could see a huge devaluation of the materials used in crafting as well as the item itself.
2. Moes If the items many players purchase chests at moes to obtain are replaced, we could lose a very valuable coin outlet for the game. With more and more coin not making an exit from circulation, it is possible to see hyperinflation. As many players know, we can sink a ton of coin in to chests in an attempt to obtain the items we are looking for. For example The new Divine Thrusting Xiphos replaces level 16 Xiphos. Many people buy level 15 chests and sink hundreds of thousands of coins trying to obtain it. Once the top PVE players fit their scouts with the legendary versions, they will be looking to sell them. With a large supply, the price could get to a level that would make buying the level 15 chests financial suicide. At this point, it would make more sense just to buy the legendary version, effectively killing the need for anyone to buy level 15 moes chests.. The same with all of the non level 40 Moes chests.
3. Alliances. We all have our reasons for picking the alliance we fight side by side with in the battle. One of these reasons is the exclusive gear we get access to. We have already seen Delos exclusive longest range bow in the game"Delian Adept's Bow" take a backseat to the Celeste exclusive "Bow of the master hunter" Could further implimentation remove perks for choosing a specific Alliance?
4. Lose playerbase. With its diverse appeal, many different reasons bring many different types of players to the love of AOEO. We have Hardcore PVE and PVP players, the casual PVP and PVE players, but we also have farmers, that spend hours farming for the chests that drop at many different levels looking for those hard to get pricey items to prize for themselves, or to sell in the market for big coin. They are the Archaeoligists of AOEO. If the need for these items is removed, we effectively remove somthing they love about AOEO.
We also have the collectors, that prize holding very rare items that they can show off. Players looking to get their hands on these hard to get pieces from farmers to fill gear slots. The gear does not have stats that provide a massive advantage over current existing gear while questing, but just having that hard to get special item that other people do not have is somthing they enjoy.
I heard a comment not so long ago that "The Devs want gearscore to mean somthing" With everyone cramming their slots with Legendary gear, everyone will have 1,000 gear score, and effectively, it really wont mean anything! I also have heard players call for quests to be made easier. Just alike, It makes much more sense to improve your knowlege on gear, and to look at your units, and what they do, and try to find gear that will help your units in battle, and gear them based on knowlege, rather than dumbing down the gearing process and have everyone toss a legendary gear in every slot. We can find proof in the old game with items such as delian hood, and delian Adept's Bow (much later added items) That the intention to make everything legendary gear just was not there. I personally have played this game for an embarrasing amount of hours. Back before the game was closed, I had all of my civs nicely geared with rameses on every unit, but only one (Perfectly) geared with all of the really hard to get items. What do we do when we are all geared out from just grinding 40 quests?
Hopfully the Dev team can get reorganized. I would love to see them utilize people for their knowlege in the game. Pair a dev comfortable with design with a Dev that is a really strong pve player. Hopefully they will take their time with anything released and do a good job with it. I hope they bring someone on board that has a good knowlege of in game economy, and items. I heard a comment "We owe the game the respect to make sure anything we do, is done very well" I strongly agree with this. I am hoping the team starts to think of everything and its possible effects on the game, and stop being in a rush to add items for slots that we have not even had a chance to fill with the old stuff yet.

The Ugly

PVP
The true end game.
I will start out by saying there is a 19 year old age of empires still going strong
AOE2: Why have people been so loyal to this game which has had little continuous development? There is a strong PVP community that keeps this games heart pumping like an 18 year old on red bull!
Pvp Players are the essential "front men" to the project. With the casted tournaments with cash prizes, the streams, the youtube videos, they bring a face to the project that reaches outsiders and creates hype and excitement about the game.
Sadly, PVP is in terrible shape. Sparta is currently functioning, but visiting this city will bring more sightings of rolling tumbleweeds than another player to have a match against. As a casual looking for the experience pvp has to offer, you will likely get matched with someone above your skill level, and before you get the opportunity to hone your skills in order to be a viable opponent, discourage may set in and squash your desire to further develop them. The top players, or more skilled players, run in to problems trying to find others that match with their skill level, causing boredom, also leading to discouragement.
What is causig the issues with PVP? I have heard quotes from players such as "Hands down best PVP gameplay in the genre", "the closest you can get to rts 1v1 perfection" "superb pvp experience, our best kept secret" many described how smooth the rts gameplay is and how well balanced the game is. Sadly, many players who want to get the PVP experience, are not getting the chance.
Why is it such a ghost town in Sparta? We are a small community reliving the experience of an abandoned game. We are in a conundrum with playing a previously dead game resurrected, it is hard to get new players in, If we invite players from another RTS, they would try Sparta out and run for the hills for the above mentioned reasons. So how can we get Sparta in a position where there is an active playerbase big enough to not be a total embarrasment for any players we might invite to try out Celeste? Our answer is right in front of our noses! We have a gold mine of PVE players. Casuals don't stay casuals forever. They either move up, or move on. While Sparta never really had an attractive reward system back in the old game, it was an alive game, and didn't really need it. Currently the Sparta rewards offer no appealing reason for any PVE players to even take a second glance. The reward system compared to pve quests is appalling. You could grind Sparta for weeks, just to get the kind of rewards you would get for playing a couple of PVE quests. Why do the Devs seem so unwilling to invest in PVP, when this is the Ultimate end game experiece? Years from now, the only aspect of the game that will remain fresh and replayable will be our PVP. Neglecting PVP is one of the same mistakes Microsoft made in the original game, being a contributing cause that lead to the games death. There seems to be a common theme here, a staunch stance of trying to make one type of player's experience more enjoyable, with no care or concern of how it could be destroying another. Again, we must understand that there are different types of people that enjoy the game differently. Appealing to only casuals will not support longevity for the game. We shouldnt want the game to die for any of them. Some PVP folks express doubt that the glory that is AOEO PVP will ever fully recover. I say, lets prove them wrong!


In closing, there are many different types of players in AOEO. Which players provide the biggest opportunity for longevity of the game? Which type of players are the most loyal? Most of us would probably agree that the biggest thing that bothers us about the old game, is its short life span. How after all said and done, through all of the ups and downs, we never got to show the world what AOEO had become. Lets band together to make decisions to ensure longevity of the game, so history does not repeat itself. And give us the opportunity to show the world, the experience of AOEO!

 

[Elevenx]

Saving Spot for statement regarding PvP and why it will never work with the current paradigm of the current devs. (I'll respond next week, it's a busy week for me)

 

[Kevsoft]

Thank you very much for taking your time for writing such a long feedback message. I know that not everything is perfect but we hope to fix a lot of thing. Especially in PvP we recently increased the per quest reward and there are more PvP updates to come soon. I'd wish we had a way to get more players to the game, but this is not that easy.

For your other points I will take it into account and we hope to make better decisions in the future.

 

[DUREX]

I think for pvp better hotkey management is needed, so even total noobs can manage some basic apm. This is one of the key aspects of starcraft2.

 

[Oranges]

GE

 

[musictopia]

I personally like the idea of more legendary gear. It would be great if legendary gear was always the best in the game. i hated having to farm old quests just to get super rare items. Of course, in the old game, we were able to have multiple accounts. we can't have that here. It would be boring for a person to always have to configure skirmish to get certain level rewards or to have to use moes which is usually a waste of money.

 

[Twowords]

I read somewhere that you can have up to 5 accounts max on this. I can't seem why someone would want to have more than that but I do have a list of people who do have that many.

 

[Forest]

PvP rewards needs to be muliplied with factor 50. Also legendary shop with PvE legendaries should be added for Spartan Points. I am serious with this.

 

[Christusvincit]

when I joined this game back in early Jan. there were 300+ players online every weekend sometimes beginning thurs. night.Now we are doing good if we have 150.there were always around 200 on weekdays.I've watched these numbers spiral downwards up to now.Where are all the people that were so ecstatic over this game coming back?there seems to be a very small crowd of loyal members.I will stick with this game until it dies again.Everyone,I'm sure, has their own opinion where the problem is.I see this game as legitimate recreational fun,when the majority of video games seem to come from the depths of h... .this game is so varied in its content and always has something to offer.I appreciate all that those that work on this game and its further development,have done so far.I pray for them each day in this work.None of us is perfect and most of us far from perfection.At least those people working on this game are willing to sacrifice a portion of their lives to at least try to make this game attractive to more players.Do they fail at times?Does that surprise anybody?God bless them in all their efforts.
I ask everyone to be more patient in this work and its development and keep playing.The problems with pvp are varied and many,but I don't want to prolong this reply.I leave it to the developers.In pve there are less problems.but I will say the main problem in pvp is the fact that the worst of what is in people comes out to a much higher degree in pvp,anywhere from a lack of charity,patience and kindness to downright nastiness to say the least.I must stress that this is not always the case,but I have seen it a much higher degree in pvp.We need to begin with oursevles and our own failures.

 

[Exclusive0r]

I think Co OP needs a happy hour .. a

 

[rtsgamer]

Hello everyone,

50-100 players most if the time online.
For a few hours per day players total goes to around 110-120.
Weekends around 150 players or less.
PVP - let me say simple; "dead"
When i say "dead", that might be sounds not right for someone, but thats what it is, a few only, same people on pvp, nothing else. When i am agressive with my opinion here, thats intent.

For PvP, u can convert some of the players from pve. Somehow need to make pvp more attractive for pvers.

Maybe we can/should manage to advertise for aoeo, like, when i remember right, zutazuta / interjection from ESOC did before.

And one point i want to add. Even if everything is right, what everyone says, at the and of the day; its a game.

I am grateful to everyone, who is spending time for aoe.

Greetz / hf & gl all

 

[ByFstugan]

I personally like the idea of more legendary gear. It would be great if legendary gear was always the best in the game. i hated having to farm old quests just to get super rare items. Of course, in the old game, we were able to have multiple accounts. we can't have that here. It would be boring for a person to always have to configure skirmish to get certain level rewards or to have to use moes which is usually a waste of money.

I strongly agree with this quote and disagree with the OP's reasoning around the "divine" items being a bad idea. To me it's silly both that there are so many Epic and Legendary items that is pure crap, as well as a rare items would be "the best you can find" on a certain area.
I think instead the idea they went with about adding the divine items should be taken a step further and some items should either loose their epic/leg-status and be demoted to rare, or that they would get a boost so they would fit in a epic/leg cathegory.

Besides that to use Moe's is a "nonono no NO NO Never, don't do it, look away" issue to many since it mostly gives crap (and from what I heard has been nerfed more under Celeste?), and is to compare with the temptation to eat dogcrap in order to hope and find some undigested candy in it. I spent 500k the other day and didn't even get one legendary item or even on item I would concider good, nor that the market in it's pricesettings is concidering valuable. To have Moe's as a hope to function as a coin-sink is not a good hope, very few use it, and many warn about it.

A good coins sink would be to make the stores have USEFULL stuff, like the epic stores and such (with the need of an addition of legendary stores) that people accually want to buy. Also make the best items (like the Delian hood, that's by FAR best of the best in it's area) to be Legendary status instead of rare. As it is now I haven't bought it and will likelly never do it just because I prefere the shiny things that's close to as good (2,7% extra walk speed doesn't show much in practice) over a rather ugly rare item. So, make some of the best items buyable from shops, and shiny, and not to silly expensive, and you will have a coin-sink that works.

Another point to not have the best items low-level is that the inflow of new players issadly VERY low (which we see in market on prices of scout items in example, and how hard many items are to sell) and when many of us has all civs on lev 40 the best items in old system was impossible for us except from new players. Also the new players would need one LOS sword on five civs and one LOS javelin on one, and as soon as you are four levels over where you can find it you will never find it again on that civ, and when all civs is passed that you are screwed on you own. So the chance of new players stay on that level and farming is the only hope - which many don't, and also is a very boring way to play the game.
Hence if we would go back to old system it would force people to make dual accounts, one regular and one for farming, where they can farm the items needed themself - or else they could pretty much forget to ever get them. As it is now they can always buy the leg versions from other players, and when they got all they can by time upgrade them to better boosted versions also same way - and if wanting to after that the impossible quest to get all items maxed, which can never be done during a liftetime, even with help of all players in the game.

In short, make the best items shiny and make more real good items buyable at high prices - if it's one area that's not looked over much it's the stores in this game, most are so unintresting that you only go to them to sell of crap and you look nothing to what they sell (and if you do you'd get disappointed).

 

[ByFstugan]

PvP rewards needs to be muliplied with factor 50. Also legendary shop with PvE legendaries should be added for Spartan Points. I am serious with this.

I have a similar suggestion to this but for the PVE Crete maps, but those points you win there is rather boring to buy crappy chest with, so I suggested this, a suggestion in two parts where the first is to give Crete-points instead of chests as reward:

//QUOTE:
6A/ Remove chest payouts and add "Crete points payout": So maybe like 2k for top 1 place, and less and less depending on position. Top 25 (at least) should all win Crete points.

6B/ Fix two new stores: There should be two new stores with 10 (or more) random items each season (rotating similar to EP-store), one store for Legendary, and one for Epic items. Have them cost a more "true price" (compare to stats from GM if possible) where the most expensive Legendary item cost like 1000 Crete points (so 1st position gives ability to buy two good Leg items that one accually want).
*This also makes it pay something back for them who do ALOT of Crete maps, so after 40 quests you can buy something good (or much less if you got partly what you need from a lower price on season and want to save up to get what you really want).
[END QUOTE]//

Here is link to that post:
https://forums.projectceleste.com/t...-improve-the-crete-experience.3886/#post-6029

 

[ByFstugan]

About the PVP.

I've played AoE1 since 1998 and AoE2 since 2001 (was a bit late to jump on that train due to resolution/monitor issues in the old days) and only played those games in PVP, and in my opinion it's the only area where they work as they should, PVE there is nothing that will keep you entertained for long. In that area AoEo is magnificent and genious, and in here I've played almost only PVE.

I have ALOT to say about this, and though this will not be short I'm going to do my best to keep it simple.

First of all, what makes PVP so intresting is the thrill of meeting an opponent that you not that easily can predict, as with the AI in PVE where you pretty much know "if I do this, computer does that" and "if I instead do that, computer instead does this". That part is same for AoE1+2 and AoEo.

The more relevant differences then is two things, how to find games and who to experience them with.

In AoEo the computer pairs you with an unknown name that you don't see before you launch, and if you're new to PVP that person is twice or more your skill - and it is NEVER fun to meet players that is EITHER to good, or even to bad.

That's why AoE's LOBBY-SYSTEM is such a good idea, and it SHOULD be implemented in Sparta. There it should be a number of rooms which you can host and do settings in. You should be able to preset what map and number of players it will be, and what skill-level your opponents should be (like n00bs or experts kind of text). Due to a ranking system only new nicknames can smurf (a problem you never can avoid), and them who uses their own nick would have a ranking that reveals if they are better than n00bs or not. Here you also get an IMPORTANT social factor, you can chat a bit before games, and after games you activelly havet to exit room, but can also stay and thank for the game or chat about how it went or so.

This part is mainly game-mechanics and can be solvable by building a better engine for how to find players to play with, and if you enter Sparta and see like 1-3 rooms, or hundreds as it can be many times over on AoE2, you can soon see if there is any one looking for a player with your skills and presets for map and such, and you don't have to enter a game that you after you see the best player in the game and a map you hate wish that you had never entered.

The last thing I will say is the most important, and it's about the social part. The thing that had made AoE grow so much is commentators that spectate games and releases them to youtube or even send them live on twitch so that all others with intrest can watch the best of the best wrestle with a commentator as if you were watching sport on television. This part has even made E-sport a thing that has grown to a multimillion dollar industry in some games.

Another thing that was AWESOME that voobly fixed was the ability to "spectate" games that other were hosting. Then you could enter a gameroom which the best players were to play in, and set yourself as a "spectator" which meant that you would live specate the game while the best players in the world met toe to toe, and you could watch any player or both or all as you pleased (changing point of view to one or all), and choose to look on map exactly where you thought it was most intresting at the time. This did that a game could have 2-8 players, and as many or 100+ spectators in same game. This social part was for me and many of my AoE2-friends something we mostly did for many years, we wasn't playing activly, but we watched games and were on coms talking about them as they happened, and it was REALLY entertaining.

Because of this I have earlier suggested a "spectator" function to the game, and then I mean as well to the PVE side as to the PVP side. You should any time be able to right-click persons and watch their games, as well as players should be able to accept all to do that, or none, or if "accept all" a list of people who are banned, or if "reject all" a list of people who are accepted anyhow. In this game we would need settings for this that said "never allow in Crete" i.e and special rules for Sparta as well as all PVE in general. But IF we could look on eachother, and "see what he is doing, and how", the social part of this game would grow massivelly and it would draw more people to the game for sure, or make the way into the game easier and more attractive.

To make this possible in AoE2 they used the "Save game" file that is created each game (if selected), and used that live to send to spectators so they could watch the replay while it still was recorded. So to solve this I assume one have to solve the challenge to "save games" as they did in AoE2.

EDIT:
I STRONGLY would advise all devs with AoEo to go to www.voobly.com and try some PVP in "Age of Empires II: The Conquerors" there and see how it works to find game through their lobby-system. Even more I'd advise you to spectate games of the more skilled players and see how that works, and after that concider what this could mean for the AoEo-community and the inner life there.

Link the thread with that suggestion:
https://forums.projectceleste.com/threads/spectate-live-experience.27/#post-49