That’s precisely what I’m getting at. We can’t and shouldn’t expect a dozen more Civs, each one needs to be chosen very carefully.
Civ Selection Criteria for an 8th civ, which may never be designed
- Thread starter Andy P XIII
- Start date
That’s precisely what I’m getting at. We can’t and shouldn’t expect a dozen more Civs, each one needs to be chosen very carefully.
We have 2 civs with one cav unit. I dont see how this is impossible. It's just a form of civ identity.
I think you're selling the potential short. The more civs that get made the easier it will become to make new ones as new talent will freely want to offer their skills. Maybe I'm a bit too much of an idealist to see your viewpoints? I could be unrealistic, but I have a method to my madness.
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Unless I am missing something, if a civ has one Infantry, then either (1) the only Infantry is a Spearman and that’s an incredibly lame Infantry for an entire civ or (2) there is no Spearman and Ages 1 and 2 are broken. I don’t understand why we would ever just give a Civ one Infantry. I’m not sure we could balance it.
As far as me selling potential short, I’m just trying to speculate based on my experience. We have 3 people talented enough and devoted enough to make and animate the models. We have one guy putting 40-80 hours per week into Roman development for two years plus Kev and Ry holding the rest of the game together. There’s nothing any of them are doing that could be improved to shave off enough development time that could conceivably change our schedule much for a next civ. And we don’t have anybody new joining.
We need something like 5,000 to 10,000 hours of volunteer, professional quality labor. It’s a miracle we have who we have. I can’t imagine ever having a way to get those hours again but pack it into a shorter amount of time. Plus life happens and I’m sure at least some of the folks we have will get pulled away at least partially, if not totally.
So unless something big changes and more professional level talent falls into our lap, the next civ would be run through the fingers of those same four people. Even without them getting distracted by life’s eventualities, that’s another 18-24 months. I don’t see any reason why we could, would, or should anticipate we have so many more civs before us that we should plan to have both the Scythians and the Huns.
Blind optimism makes for fun civ ideas but also infeasible expectations. Candidly, it’s not helpful to narrow in on the 8th civ if that choice depends on the assumption that we will make a 9th civ, let alone a 10th or 12th.
As far as me selling potential short, I’m just trying to speculate based on my experience. We have 3 people talented enough and devoted enough to make and animate the models. We have one guy putting 40-80 hours per week into Roman development for two years plus Kev and Ry holding the rest of the game together. There’s nothing any of them are doing that could be improved to shave off enough development time that could conceivably change our schedule much for a next civ. And we don’t have anybody new joining.
We need something like 5,000 to 10,000 hours of volunteer, professional quality labor. It’s a miracle we have who we have. I can’t imagine ever having a way to get those hours again but pack it into a shorter amount of time. Plus life happens and I’m sure at least some of the folks we have will get pulled away at least partially, if not totally.
So unless something big changes and more professional level talent falls into our lap, the next civ would be run through the fingers of those same four people. Even without them getting distracted by life’s eventualities, that’s another 18-24 months. I don’t see any reason why we could, would, or should anticipate we have so many more civs before us that we should plan to have both the Scythians and the Huns.
Blind optimism makes for fun civ ideas but also infeasible expectations. Candidly, it’s not helpful to narrow in on the 8th civ if that choice depends on the assumption that we will make a 9th civ, let alone a 10th or 12th.
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I’ll give you an example of why you should be careful.
When forgotten empires made their first unofficial mod they made a civ called Indians and it was a camel civ, since none of the other civs in the mod had camels, with a very forgettable elephant UU. Years later there are battle elephants and the Indian civ because it was designed beforehand to be a broad India civ does not have this unit that fits India and almost likely never will!
My point? Make the most Hunnish Huns you can or Scythianized Scythians you can, sure, but don’t try and Frankenstein them just because you most likely think you won’t have both as you never know when you’ll regret throwing the wrong eggs in the wrong basket. Don’t be like the AoE2 Indians that don’t feel like India.
When forgotten empires made their first unofficial mod they made a civ called Indians and it was a camel civ, since none of the other civs in the mod had camels, with a very forgettable elephant UU. Years later there are battle elephants and the Indian civ because it was designed beforehand to be a broad India civ does not have this unit that fits India and almost likely never will!
My point? Make the most Hunnish Huns you can or Scythianized Scythians you can, sure, but don’t try and Frankenstein them just because you most likely think you won’t have both as you never know when you’ll regret throwing the wrong eggs in the wrong basket. Don’t be like the AoE2 Indians that don’t feel like India.
We would always build accurate civs. That’s the fun part! I can’t believe they didn’t put elephants in India.
Well technically they gave them an elephant archer UU but later they added the Raja expansion and didn’t retroactively add the new shared unit battle elephants to India and even though the Mongols who are from an era that makes the civ old enough to vote, got the brand new steppes lancer unit.
I just had a thought... what about the Aboriginal Australians?
Hang on just a sec, they are very diverse across Australia, many different fighting techniques among the tribes. They had a rich military including scouts, melee fighters and long range spear throwing, I'm not sure about cavalry and siege weapons though, they were/are a nomadic people but also built villages and religious sites. (these can be incorporated into building designs for the civ)
Depending on what era you take the soldiers from, after the Brittish arrived they had access to gun powder and some of there soldiers were trained in its use.
Also think about it, with them comes a new environment, the Aussie outback! some dry maps and filled with eucalyptus trees and palm trees near water. Or jungle area with the more exotic locations in australia
Kangaroos (will fight back in groups when you attack them)
wombats (little tanks that don't do a lot of damage but have high health (and are a good food source?))
dingoes (hunt in packs)
saltwater crocodiles (these ones are the dangerous ones - so they should pack a punch, and attack units on the shore from the waters edge (randomly!))
and more
Anyway just thought i would throw my ideas into the hat, hope you like them.
Hang on just a sec, they are very diverse across Australia, many different fighting techniques among the tribes. They had a rich military including scouts, melee fighters and long range spear throwing, I'm not sure about cavalry and siege weapons though, they were/are a nomadic people but also built villages and religious sites. (these can be incorporated into building designs for the civ)
Depending on what era you take the soldiers from, after the Brittish arrived they had access to gun powder and some of there soldiers were trained in its use.
Also think about it, with them comes a new environment, the Aussie outback! some dry maps and filled with eucalyptus trees and palm trees near water. Or jungle area with the more exotic locations in australia
Kangaroos (will fight back in groups when you attack them)
wombats (little tanks that don't do a lot of damage but have high health (and are a good food source?))
dingoes (hunt in packs)
saltwater crocodiles (these ones are the dangerous ones - so they should pack a punch, and attack units on the shore from the waters edge (randomly!))
and more
Anyway just thought i would throw my ideas into the hat, hope you like them.
It's gotta be from about 2000bc to 0ad, so no gunpowder/British colonization dependant techs (bit of a shame AoE3 never had an Aboriginal/Oceanic content pack) but they do work if you make their cavalry Aussie animals strong enough to ride (even though they're never been domesticated in modern times) like roos, emus and cassowaries. Dingoes could work a lot like wardogs. While crocodiles could be a mixed land and water unit. Maybe have wombat seige units or fire-weilding infantry (a bit like aoe2 tarkans but not mounted)? 
Something akin to the fire pit from aoe3's native American civs makes cultural sense too, corroboree with villager shake-a-leg for bonus build time/damage/conservation could fit.
Having moveable buildings like sc2 Terran works well with them historically too, imagine packing up a village of huts (with an animation of a couple of tribesmen carrying the wood to set it back up) and creeping it toward your opponent or being able to shift closer/further from water. Proxy play on them would also be pretty common too.
The only thing is, that the civs are being designed from the Fertile Crescent and Mediterranean outwards, so expect Aboriginals and Maori to be a civ option next decade along with East Asian and Americas civs lol
Something akin to the fire pit from aoe3's native American civs makes cultural sense too, corroboree with villager shake-a-leg for bonus build time/damage/conservation could fit.
Having moveable buildings like sc2 Terran works well with them historically too, imagine packing up a village of huts (with an animation of a couple of tribesmen carrying the wood to set it back up) and creeping it toward your opponent or being able to shift closer/further from water. Proxy play on them would also be pretty common too.
The only thing is, that the civs are being designed from the Fertile Crescent and Mediterranean outwards, so expect Aboriginals and Maori to be a civ option next decade along with East Asian and Americas civs lol
Let’s not feed the troll posters. Although speaking of such mythical beasts, the Norse having berserks and Ulfdeins extends the period to at least the start of the dark ages.
In any case I am glad I narrowed down civ 8 to 6 options I will give very detailed and hopefully appreciated dissertations on the six civs I narrowed things down to not that I expect a large audience for it.
In any case I am glad I narrowed down civ 8 to 6 options I will give very detailed and hopefully appreciated dissertations on the six civs I narrowed things down to not that I expect a large audience for it.
Troll posters? You do realise Norse was the most slapped-together civ by the OG team right? They're the odd case out. Plus it might be nice to see something other than camels, elephants or horses popping out of stables.
Don’t know if the idea of the aboriginal civ was of serious contention. I will concede maybe I was wrong on that front, still if a civ has no contemporaries currently in game it doesn’t really fit as of yet.
Also several stables don’t just have cavalry. Half the current civs have ranged units at their stables and Babylon only has, out of 4 units one unit that is actually weaker to spears. The other aspects? Only one civ has camels or elephants and it’s the same civ none of the elephants are stable based.
sure it’s a silly game where hypaspists use dual wielding but not fantasy like riding an emu or kangaroo. In any case I wasn’t calling you a troll, but if I’m saying something is too much, me, the guy who has a 10 civ roadmap and the unique designs for those 10 civs; if I’m saying to think it over, I probably have my reasons.
Also I was bringing up Norse to determine the timeline. The German tribes and Huns seem a bit time detached unless you consider the fall of Rome as an endpoint.
By the logic of being tired of horses, are you tired of spearmen? I’m not sure what’s wrong with horses, elephants or camels as an animal. They work, and did so until the invention of the motor over a thousand years after the end of the game.
Why do you think I put:
A little, more units like sparabara would be nice in age 1.
That's great and all, but you're not the only player, nor a developer
I wasnt saying to add huns, I was saying that having a fire attack-based unit that was anti-building but not actually seige as such would be nice to see, and that Tarkans are probably the most iconic unit in RTS so far for that.
??
A little, more units like sparabara would be nice in age 1.
That's great and all, but you're not the only player, nor a developer
I wasnt saying to add huns, I was saying that having a fire attack-based unit that was anti-building but not actually seige as such would be nice to see, and that Tarkans are probably the most iconic unit in RTS so far for that.
My point in German tribes and Huns was the timeline which you said was 2000 to 0 where we have Imhotep is before and Vianthos the conversion resistance advisor as well as Octavius are beyond 1AD. Had nothing to do with setting buildings on fire my thoughts were a bit everywhere I’m afraid.
I’ll also agree on age 1s where the spearman isn’t the unit available or maybe the reverse isn’t the only unit available.
If I’m not the only player who has even half that many deeply planned ideas, then I want to meet, wine and dine and collaborate with that player Or dev, or at the very least e-shake their hand.
Hopping to your point on cavalry animals, if you want to vouch a civ with a stable that doesn’t have stables with horses then Sumerians did not have horses and had a need of onager(donkey) that they used with clunky yet bulky chariots and possibly had the now extinct Mesopotamian subspecies of elephant.
In any case if The Jakal was not trolling then I apologize to him and didn’t want to make him feel unwelcome.
I’ll also agree on age 1s where the spearman isn’t the unit available or maybe the reverse isn’t the only unit available.
If I’m not the only player who has even half that many deeply planned ideas, then I want to meet, wine and dine and collaborate with that player Or dev, or at the very least e-shake their hand.
Hopping to your point on cavalry animals, if you want to vouch a civ with a stable that doesn’t have stables with horses then Sumerians did not have horses and had a need of onager(donkey) that they used with clunky yet bulky chariots and possibly had the now extinct Mesopotamian subspecies of elephant.
In any case if The Jakal was not trolling then I apologize to him and didn’t want to make him feel unwelcome.
I still believe the Aztec Empire would be a good fit. I wont give a history lesson (leave that for Wikipedia) but they have the basics like the Celts did. Not to mention they would look awesome in aoeo art style.
@bbgambini the Aztecs fall a little too late for our era, but there were certainly a number of tremendous civs from Mesoamerica that fall close enough, such as the Maya, Olmec, or the people known now as the Teotihuacan. It would be amazing if we ever were to spread that far around the globe.
As far as how many civs we have each drafted up, I respectfully remind you all that we do not need and unfortunately could not use a 10 civ roadmap. At most, we need one civ. We would want to choose the very best civ that would feel like a natural fit to AoEO while also expanding the game in unique and fun ways. Civ design is not a blunt instrument. We don't have the luxury of hitting the game over and over again with new civs until something works. That's why we do not play AoE2. 
I was not trolling, i was just thinking about something different to every other civ out there... sorry that you are too elitist with your 6 fully planned out civs! It was just an idea, and as it is said these will probably never be made so calm down...
Every dev fits that bill, and I'm one of the players who also does, so hello
Good point about Sumerians. And there was a bit of carelessness or bending rules about the timeline spread from Egypt to Norse and what techs they'd be limited to.
I'm just worried that with such elaborate roadmaps you're setting yourself up for disappointment too, as each civ is probably going to be a 3 year project when started from scratch, unless the development team grows and there is some form of succession plan when big guns like PF2K or Chaos eventually have to move on to something else in life. I was pretty much the most frequent suggestion-poster for most of last year, and the only suggestion of mine (and probably not only by me, with changes that flow with what I had in mind, but weren't identical) I can say for sure is in the game is buffed Vemundr/war hounds
Go make your own game then. This attitude will get you nowhere.
Words are cheap and worth very little, if anything, if you don't back them up with actions.
I still think George Washington and Abraham Lincoln advisors are a must. Onward with the muskets, bring on "The Americans" 