Civ Selection Criteria for an 8th civ, which may never be designed

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Andy P XIII, Jan 9, 2020.

?

Do you understand that this thread is not suggesting we will ever make an 8th civ?

  1. Yes, that is a reasonable request.

    15.6%
  2. Yes, I just enjoy discussing potential civs for the sake of discussing potential civs.

    84.4%
  1. Ardeshir

    Ardeshir Immortal

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    WTF my Washington advisor isn't giving the extra wood gathering bonus from cherry trees plz fix
     
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  2. Primordial Bias

    Primordial Bias Spearman

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    Have the Hittites come up as a possibility yet?
     
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  3. Andy P XIII

    Andy P XIII Moderator
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    Yes, but not strongly. They existed a little too early to make much sense, having disappeared totally by 1100 BCE. So they overlapped with the Egyptians and Babylonians, but never really interacted with the Greeks, Persians, Celts, Norse, or Romans. They also occupy the same place on the map as other civs we have. They also do not hold a whole lot of brand recognition to modern eyes. Put it all together, and they wouldn't be as strong a candidate as some others.

    Here's a nice map that shows them at their height around 1300 BCE. https://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/Hittites_1300bc.jpg

    Of course, reasonable minds can disagree, but in full transparency, I just cannot see these guys rising to the top of the heap. I loved them AoE1, though.
     
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  4. Primordial Bias

    Primordial Bias Spearman

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    There could also be potential with the Palmyrans, I suppose. I'm just going off the civ list for AOE1 and spitballing. Personally, I'd love to see a Choson, Chinese or even a Yamato/Jomon civ if that were ever a possibility.
     
  5. DynasticPlanet

    DynasticPlanet Champion

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    Well, if we're gonna start here, I'll defer to my helping of the narrow down in post# #54 which I'm linking to directly.

    TL:DR - I narrowed from like 15 to six:

    Nubians
    Hittites
    Huns
    Scythians
    India
    Phoenicia/Carthage

    Hittites were one of them, and now I'll be giving good justifications for almost all 6 of them considering a few factors: fun gameplay potential, unique attribute potential and possible quests and more.

    As for not all civs overlapping, the Romans barely overlap with Babylon, who in turn never met a Norseman or Celt. Hittites would have had overlap with Greeks especially if Troy was actually the same place as the Hittite city of Wilusa.

    Anyway, I'll stay on point, even if I'm probably coming across as trying to sabotage the thread or this game, (I'm not, I just really love this game, don't vilify,) I will still try and help narrow things down further.

    As for the Hittites themselves:

    An army purely built of footmen and chariots is how the Hittite armies are defined. Their big discovery of Iron means this is a civ with the means to use it, perhaps making them a slower juggernaut of a civ, although they did field lighter armored men as well.

    Chariots were varied with variants consisting of javelin throwers, charging formation breakers and archers who fired while another man pulled the reigns. Despite sounding bland, a stable full of Chariots could easily have a very diverse array of options and abilities.

    But don't discount their footmen, spearmen and axemen in formations were at the frontlines and the Hittites did engage in long term sieges as well as naval warfare against the island of Cyprus.

    Perhaps an interesting aspect of Hittite play could be their armories, the only armories you'll want to build many of, even if they have an advance to Bronze Age price tag. The armory could be their age up spot and a place for repairs, by which I mean that all units, possibly even those that need repairs, as well as buildings and ships, are effected by a healing aura effect within a certain range of the armory. This way you will make many all over the map to get the aura at all locations. Other than that, this civ ages up here. Definitely could be the only civ that has the "Advanced" Armory and the only other contender I can think of are the Iberians and their near steel metalworking. So advanced that this could be the civ that has the Egyptian equivalent of attack upgrades in that it has the same cost as Egypt but increases melee and pierce damage all at once.

    Hittites also had a strong worship for Arinna and Tarhunt, their sun and storm gods. A sun god worshipper with an Empower may seem too familiar but what if their sun worship gives them a blinding debuff and the Stormbringer can use a converting crack of lightning that stuns all enemies very briefly around the point of conversion, and perhaps even the ability to have a tech that causes non-Hittite converted units to gain their Champion tech, which would still not help much in PvE but in PvP that's gonna be a lot bigger.


    Quest potential can see some very interesting wars. The Battle of Qadesh has a lot of potential as a poorly explored war in almost all media whatsoever and deserves to be remembered even if it has Egyptians on Camel and elephant despite that not being the case in the war (Greeks didn't bring Crossbows or Hoplites to Mycenae or Troy either though) and perhaps a new form of Alliance series? There are many things to explore here.

    Gear for Hittites would actually have a lot of shields. Almost every image depicts a shield on axe, sword and even spearmen, and chariots even used them as well to guard their riders from arrows. If Norse are the axe civ, and Rome the Sword civ, then Hittites would be the Shield civ. It would probably have good homes for Cavalry armor too as despite not riding horses, they did protect them so they could ride into the fray.

    I will expand upon this hopefully tomorrow, but for now I hope I made a case.
     
  6. Andy P XIII

    Andy P XIII Moderator
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    I am not sure what to do with most of that because I do not see how the Hittites would ever possibly be in contention.

    They would have the worst era overlap of any civ. There are exactly two occasions where two of the first seven civs never overlapped in any way (Celts and Babylonians, Norse and Babylonians). I made a chart:

    upload_2020-3-19_10-48-42.png
    But not only do the Hittites spectacularly fail the Era test (especially when compared to a slew of other contenders), but they also fail the Location test. Rather than occupy an open space on the map, the Hittites occupied (at their height) a tiny sliver of the world map, which is also already occupied by the Persians/Babylonians.

    upload_2020-3-19_10-55-35.png

    This is all before we even get to asking whether the Hittites compared to the other potential 8th civs are likely to hype up the playerbase as a civ with obvious draws that they are super interested in playing. And this is before we peer into their souls and see if we can extract some super interesting gameplay ideas. Respectfully, Civ design is a lot more than Shields and Armories.

    I am puzzled why someone who positions themself as a foremost expert on civ design would ever argue that the best candidate to serve as the 8th civ in this game would be one who did not overlap with five of the existing seven civs.
     
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  7. bbgambini

    bbgambini Hippikon

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    Mayans or China/Japan

    they would play and look different from what we have (but we do have Japanese vanity gear hmmmm)
     
  8. Primordial Bias

    Primordial Bias Spearman

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    To be fair, I think the Japanese vanity gear is more Genpei/Sengoku style Samurai than the ancient Jomon/Yamato styles.
     
  9. Andy P XIII

    Andy P XIII Moderator
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    I understand that most vanity gear was the brainchild of a single dude who was tasked with cranking out as many sets as he could in a few weeks. Definitely they are for fun and not historic.
     
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  10. Kulcsos12

    Kulcsos12 Hippikon

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    Historic or not, the best looking sword is the Dragon Slayer Sword!
     
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  11. Anthos88

    Anthos88 Spearman

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    UPDATED NEW STUFF FOR THE HITTES AND AKXUM. Sorry, for the bad writing i did it in a rush.

    I had to make a account.... i was very surprised whit some of the choices... I am surprised nobody mentioned the Hittites...... Enemies of all the powers around Egypt,Greeks, Assyrians (Babylons northern city state). They dominated firt's the secrets of iron making when they fell is when the technology spread out.

    Also i noticed the age doesn't really matter in this game we got Babylon and Norse. When Babylon existed the Norse were not even on anyone record, since almost nothing is know of Pre-Celt Europe. this game is anything but historic... Egyptians never used War Elephants as an example.

    Early Roman Empire would be the set date for races since Romans are the most recent of the current factions that we have. I won't count the Norse since they were barbarians that came in the early middle age and they don't fit in the game in the firt's place, since its not even close in whit the dates.

    So to me as one who read a lot of history from books here my logical choices. based on location,age, power and uniqueness.

    1- Carthage/Phonenicians- I think this is a must in fact i was surprised when they released it as "guild" and not a full fledged faction. from Balearic Slingers, Numidian Javeling cav, Gaul Heavy cav, African Elephants, Libyans warriors, Iberian warriors etc, they have a whole bunch to choose from, i would make the choice to build one unique building out of 2 each building has access to 3 unique units from a region example.

    Also of course star techs on the navy.

    Iberian barracks- Iberian Falcata, Balearic Slingers.
    African Barracks- Numidian cav, Lybian warriors.

    2- Hittite Empire- Powerful Nation enemies of Mycenaean (Ancient Greeks),Egypt and Assyria. very unique armor and helmet they had a very different hair style. they were more infantry oriented than the Egyptians they also used a 3 men chariot that was more capable of melee than the Egyptians. they were the first so far to discover Iron, when they fell the secret of Iron making spread.

    They were very tolerant of other gods in fact it was know as the land of the thousand gods. In general Polytheistic religions were more tolerant.

    I was surprised they weren't mentioned, i don't blame them they are relatively unknown since they disappeared rather mysteriously. Here a photo notice the Three man Chariots, also note the Men whit the skirts and bronze helmet whit black hair they were the Elite of their kings.

    [​IMG]


    Three types of warriors, left Royal guard of Elite troops, Middle Charioteer Archer due tot he scale armor, and the one oft the right a typical infantry man. Also on the back is their fortification style. they fortified very well.... when their kingdom fell they divided into varius Neo-Hittie Kingdoms(the last fot hem fell about 700 BC) some of them you might now like th Phoenicians.... these guys had a whole bunch of influence and are relatively unknown.

    For one who know each culture astyle and armor you can clearly see the influence these guys had on the following kingdoms... Persia, Assyrians, Phoenicians. in fact is thought the Immortals were copied of the Hittie Kings "Golden Spears" and were a profecional fighting force you can see on the second photo two the Royal Guard.

    Notice the unique hairstyle they had on the Charioteer also they used merrcenaries.

    [​IMG]

    5eed97bc233c2c7c1eaa74b7a105c2df.jpg P

    I think all of the faction should have special units this includes the Norse and the Babylons, I would greatly appreciate the Celeste team if they did that int he future. let say at least 3 per faction it doesnt even have to be from the faction many can be mercenaries just like he Hittites employed Syrian Archers.

    Hittites In game

    Well, their iconic units should be the Three man Chariot, this can be a "Chariott Immortals" Javelins for range and spear for melee on range they can be weaker.

    Lv2-Lv3 walls, they fortified a lot, their capital Hattusa was a fortified city.

    The celts already Gold centric, since its the only metal and we know they were good swordsmiths makes sense but the Hittites were the first to discovered iron i guest having them concentrate on stone makes no sense. What about if they have armor upgrades earlier or cheaper?

    Just some ideas.

    3-Kingdom of Aksum- Black native people, a historian said that Aksum was one of the 4 great power of the ancient world alongside China, Persia and Rome located on the horn of Africa, commercial ally of Rome they facilitated the trade from Rome to India they had a good navy, this could be a commercial faction based on trade i noticed there no Unique market building for any faction they could have it. also had a wide array of weapons.

    Kingdom influence and trade region

    Axum_empire.png

    Aksumite governor whit a Yemeni Guard and a Omani Marine.

    1ZDaOP-aWwJET1rwdxKzTbg.jpg

    Also they lived very near to the Nubian they also used Nubian mercenaries on their armies you can incorporate Nubian units.

    4-Indus Valley Civilization/Harappas- To me this one is a must people don't know how unique and how much they can bring into the table since many fans here what they know of history if through series and games... and they are hardly accurate.

    Of the Old World they were one of three ancient cradle of civilization alongside Egypt and Babylons and all three were basically coming out at the same time and out of the three it was the biggest.. said to have 5 Million people the most advance of these cities was Harappa.

    They build massive aqueducts way before Rome, In fact the Italic(Pre-Romans) had barely arrived into Italy.

    They are quite doable, since they are very close to the Babylonia/Persia map their army composed of 4 branches infantry, chariots, Elephants and Cavalry they also had a powerful navy out of all this faction has the greatest potential since their weapons selection is hugeeeeee from two handed maces/ clubs, to all we know swords, spears, axes etc even a very unique weapon it was a huge bow the side of the man carrying it they rested the bow and whit one feet the hold the rested bow on hold the bow and whit he other they pulled.

    Conclusion

    To me this four bring more to the table and they are close to the era... i mean Norse don't fit at all but i still like them. i know what the original dev's were thinking, they wanted to capitalize on the coolness of Vikings and other shows.

    As for nations that i think that don't fit and don't bring to much to the table are

    Thrace-Greek like barbarians Greek basically.

    Germania-Norse like same Germanic family and way of warfare.

    Gauls- They are Celts... but a Celt Nation more advanced than other Celt nation, but still Celts they would make no sense.

    Nubians- too close to Egyptians almost the same way of warfare but they relied histrionically more on the bow. in fact it was called the Land Of the Bow.

    Scythians- like one mentioned the Persians have a Scythian and they also copy paste their horse archery style.

    Japanese- Overdone.... Besides ancient Japanese were veryyyyyyyy different than the feudal Samurai we know. The Japanese were Chinese colonizers that eventually became separate "race" the original Japanese are the Ainu (they are black) which some are still alive today. Koreans would make more sense.

    Ancient Japs.
    d0180e1afc8e61ba32613acbfea5f9ce.jpg

    Xiangdu/Mongols- A cavalry only faction in the Xiangdu/Mongols would be very ha
    Some worth considering Factions

    This Age of Empires is about ancient civs and what more ancient than olmec/mayans they even used beehives as a weapon, dart like projectiles for their slings, even blowpipes whit poison. they bring a whole lot of new to the table.

    Chinese are worthy mention one of the ancient civilizations ancient Chinese were very different too lot of chariots and early crossbows their spear-men could be more unique armed whit the daggeraxe.

    So on your list Carthage/Phoneicians, Indian, Olmec/Mayans and Chinese. have the most to offer and fit the ancient ascetic.
     

    Attached Files:

    #91 Anthos88, Mar 24, 2020 at 6:33 AM
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
  12. Fraxure022

    Fraxure022 Berserker

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    The Aksum sound fascinating.
     
  13. DynasticPlanet

    DynasticPlanet Champion

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    A very comnmendeble, if not a bit run-on-sentence-ish post. I will analyze it.
    I just did a thing on Hittites, I even have a full shaped idea, which if I may start off, is something your civ concepts and visions lack. They are a bit surface level. You're concerned about the armies that you don't see the mechanics behind them, or even behind the economy that funds them. The only thing I'll object is the idea that Assyrians are Babylonian. Not that Assyria should even be civ 11 if we ever even get there, but that's a topic I'll not go into.

    I'm glad someone vindicated this. The amount of current in game civs one needs to have interacted with is... ONE! And the reason you've mentioned is all but enough.

    A little basic. A civ is more than its military, and if the civ is Phoenician, then surely they'd have some Philistine, Canaanite and other local soldiers as well from Phonecia's locale. Also a few cool barracks a civ does not make. What is their economy? Their gameplay gimmicks? Do the legendary Cedars of Lebanon come into play? Does the maritime trade empire? The color purple? See what I'm getting at?

    While this can be a potent civ some day you're not telling people much other than military make up. Again if you want to say what makes something truly stand out, go in further, talk about that iron, what it could mean as far as this civ's military. Maybe you want to mention how they pretty much took their neighbor's faiths and added them to their pantheon, or ow their big head honcho god was a king of storms, meaning maybe a lightning strike stun mechanic?

    Axum is cool, but ya gotta tell us more than a few history snippets if you want to sell to the masses. I do know their timeline, at least by Wikipedia, is 100-940 AD so while timeline isn't too important, it's starting to get a little medieval.

    Much of my analysis of India civ is similar.

    Not that I enjoy nitpicking, but I think I have to. You claim this is conclusion, but you have a fair bit more I must interject on and your end results go against your current conclusion. I'll blurb within the quote using Teal Text

    And this last post confuses me. Before you narrowed it down to Phonicia, India, Axum and Hittites. Now you took out the latter 2 to replace with Olmecs and Chinese? I'm a bit confused about the swapped conclusion. Make no mistake, you and I are kindred spirits, and that is great, but I have to take a statement even if nobody else dares.
     
  14. Andy P XIII

    Andy P XIII Moderator
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    The Norse include the Germanic Tribes. They aren’t just the Vikings from 1000 years later thrown into the game. We know this from several sources, including the marketing materials and the original Devs.

    "Behold the mighty Norse! Hailing from Northern Europe, the Norse were a strong people that dared to challenge the Roman Empire."



    The Northern Hold is literally located in Germany in the location of the modern city of Bremen, which has existed for 14,000 years and was discussed by Romans around 150 CE as a city of the Germanic Tribes. We do not have a map of Scandanavia in the game.

    Beorix was a King of the Cimbri, who were a Germanic Tribe located in Jutland (Denmark) that fought the Romans in the Cimbrian War from 113 to 100 BCE.
     
    #94 Andy P XIII, Mar 27, 2020 at 12:48 AM
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
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  15. coolblade23

    coolblade23 Champion

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    Thracians were not greek barbarians.

    For example carthage copied the thracian helmet design from the thracians, Macedon and Rome copied the V attack formation from the Thracians (a formation still used right now with jet fighter), greeks copied the thracians gods of Dionysus and Ares and their peltas combat unit, unlike greek the Thracians actually formed a kingdom (The Odrysian Kindgom), the romans also copied the thracian navy (check Liburnia and Lembus from the Thraco-Illyrians), unique fort design , inspired by greek and roman techniques, but does stand out compared to them (murus-dacicus) etc ... basically they are a on par with roman/greek/carthage/macedon when it comes to buildings, technology, units, religion, navy, society , etc.

    They were a fairly advanced civilization comprised of very many fractured nations (some of them huge , like Dacia, Odrysians, Illyrians, Phrygians, Getae, etc and some of the smaller ones like Triballi, Apuli, Carpi, etc), i'd hardly call them barbarians when you compare them to say celts, germans or others.

    If you would consider them barbarians please do note that they were very different compared to greek. Even physically most thriacians were ginger and blond while greek were dark and olive.

    I am not suggesting Thracians be the 8th civ, i would hate myself for having thrace over phoenicia/carthage.
     
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  16. Anthos88

    Anthos88 Spearman

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    My friend there no sense in this game, Egyptians din't field Elephants as and example that why i liked this game more than other Age of Empires it's a bit more flexible. Norse people means North Germanic People which mean Scandinavians.Scandinavians and Germanic while related they were two different groups one was more Sea Borne and the other was Land Borne. Thats and error on the firt's developers they should have just named them Germanic's but named them Norse due to the Viking craze (marketing).

    As for the Cimbri there a lot of controversy around them because they are thought to be of Germanic descend but if not Celts they were heavily influenced by Celts. even their name in Roman/Greek sources point them to be Celts. The Romans considered anyone living on the right side of what is today France to be Germanic, some scholars have opinion that Celts regions may have been bigger, i agree

    On the Hittites, after the fall of their original kingdom came the Neo-Hitties Kingdoms, which lasted until 700 BC some for them are know including the Phoenicians were heavily influenced by the Hittites.

    Also i might note that we got Babylonians whit Norse.... they are completely different ages when Babylonians were building great monuments there little to almost nothing know of Ancient Germanics. don't get me wrong i like the Norse but to me they are too similar to Celts in fact two of them are Rush based and make no damn sense to have the two together.

    I agree, that Hittites are too close to Persia and Babylon but i was amazed how they were even omitted their influences shaped everyone around them while they existed. they were a major powerhouse, a couple is even mentioned on the Bible.

    Now if you want regional accuracy differences there only 3 that make sense Carthage/Phoenicians on Western Europe, Akxum on Africa near Nubia and Harrappas Hindus on the East i think those are the real contenders. 2 and if the devs are wiling to go as far as Asia and Americas.

    If i had to choose only one based on Logic it would need to be Carthage is the most logical, but if i had to choose a favorite one it would be Mayan/Olmecs.

    I wish i could write more but i have a lot of problem posting in this page... keep freezing up among other things.
     
  17. Anthos88

    Anthos88 Spearman

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    Awesome points, Sorry it takes me so long.... i have a lot of problems whit this forums it freezes up and i have to start over. is this normal??

    Aniway, i liked that you mentioned the Greeks are darker and black hair many people don't know that i was surprised you said it, i am mostly the one telling people that.

    What i mean is that they are too similar to Greek in that period they did had some weapons to set them apart and everything you say is true but they weren't as advanced as the Greeks and they were more warlike just as the Greeks copied them they copied the Greeks (almost everybody on Europe copied the Greeks during that time).

    I wouldn't place them on Greek or Roman level if we start comparing achievement between these whit the Thracian's fall short. if i had to choose i would prefert Iberians over Thracians they are farther away their arquitecture is more unique, hairstyles, warriors, etc.
     
  18. Ardeshir

    Ardeshir Immortal

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    I get this when flicking between browser tabs when on the forums quite a bit, but I wasn't sure if anyone else was experiencing the same issue. I basically have to restart the whole browser oftentime, cause even closing the bad tabs tends to still mean the browser (Firefox) runs slower and gives me a slow to respond prompt regardless of what else I have open.

    Agreed. It'd be a more natural fit to fit Thracian storylines under a Roman subfaction than Iberians under a Celtic one, in my opinion, although I'm not sure if either really deserve to occupy a civ space with Hittites, Scythians and Phonecians as options.
     
  19. DynasticPlanet

    DynasticPlanet Champion

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    With April fools over we can return to the topic at hand with all the seriousness it deserves! It’s a lot of seriousness btw if anyone ever doubted
     
  20. Andy P XIII

    Andy P XIII Moderator
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    We are being serious now? Good to hear. Someone break the news to the Hittites.
     
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