PvP Balance Update #21

​

Greeks:

Hippikon:

• DPS increased to 30, from 24.

> Balance Team's Comment: Hippikons could use a huge buff. This is a huge buff. Hippikons are happy now.​

--------------------
Egyptians:

Camel Rider:

• Baseline Melee-Cavalry Armor increased to 0.20, from 0.00. No longer deals bonus damage vs other Camel Riders

> Balance Team's Comment: With this change, we are trying to address Camel Riders' scaling into the lategame, particularly against other Cavalry units.​

--------------------
Persians:

-
--------------------
Celts:

Carpentom:

• Pierce Armor reduced to 0.40, from 0.50.

> Balance Team's Comment: This change aims to make Carpentoms' counters (such as Greek Sarissophoroi) and also Static Defense Buildings more effective against them, without changing their offensive capabilities.​

--------------------
Babylonians:


Gardens:

• No longer grant additional Training and Research Time Reduction for each additional Garden upon Aging Up. (Previously, each Garden provided -3.0% in Age II, -4.0% in Age III and -5.0% in Age IV. Now it's -3.0% regardless of which Age you are.) Instead, Gardens provide an additional Food Trickle when you Age up. Build Limits restored to their original values, matching PvE (4 Starting Gardens + 4 additional per Age Up.)

> Balance Team's Comment: Our main concern with Babylonian Gardens has always been how well they scale in the lategame. In Age II, Gardens are quite fine. They are expensive, take long to build and the benefits they provide are in quite a fine state. However, as players Age Up, not only do they get access to more Gardens, but also each Garden already built grants an even bigger bonus compared to the previous Age. Instead of reducing the number of Gardens players can build, we decided to nerf their scaling into the lategame, but also compensated by adding additional Food trickle to Large Gardens (Age III) and Royal Gardens (Age IV). Hopefully this will be the last time we have to change Gardens, but we'll see!
​

[Tech] Cultivation:

• Now grants +0.25 Food per Second trickle to each Garden, from 0.5

> Balance Team's Comment: This was done to balance out the additional Food generation get from their new rework in Champion Mode. See "Garden".
​

[Tech] Royal Guard Champion:

• Upgrade cost reduced to 800 Gold, from 1200. Damage Debuff against Buildings reduced to -25%, from -50%.

> Balance Team's Comment: With Royal Guards moving to Age III (in Champion Mode only), we see them get used a little more often than before, but their Champion upgrade is still too expensive and the drawback you get against your buildings is more than we would like to see, so we're lowering that, too.​

--------------------
Norse:

​

War Dog:

• Food cost decreased to 20, from 25.

> Balance Team's Comment: This change aims to make War Dogs more expendable, particularly in the early game where spending 25 food on them when you could be training other units (and Villagers, in particular) would feel a unaffordable.​

--------------------
Romans:

-
--------------------
Global:


-
--------------------

Remember, as always, these changes affect Champion PvP (And Champion Skirmish) mode ONLY and do not affect Quests, Regular Skirmish Mode, Crete or Geared PvP!

You can also see the entire Champion Mode Tech Tree (for all civilizations) here!

Feel free to discuss the changes below!

 

hi

 

hi

 

Hoppikon buff is huge, considering that is an age 4 unit. Armory attack techs are probably at least at silver status and so the buff also buffs the effect of armory.

 

Is Cataphract going to get similar love to Hippos?

 

Is Cataphract going to get similar love to Hippos?

Cataphracts have gotten a pretty big buff as well on Patch #18. Do you think that was not enough?

Curious to see some discussion about this.

 

I mostly bring them up because they seem rarely used (ignoring games that don't make it to age 4, even). Persian comps in age 4 seem to devolve into just Asa + MAs, so maybe it's a bigger issue than cataphract balancing.

 

BEFORE this Hip buff, with both at champ, ignoring armory techs, Cata have:

Worse:

• 50% more pop than Hip
• ~40% more cost than Hip

Same:

• Same DPS (except vs inf/siege, which is 150% more) as Hip
• Same Speed, LOS, Train time, etc.
  • Rigorous training gives a slight train time advantage over Agog Discipline, but at a 30% cost, which puts them at an 82% higher cost than Hip.

Better:

• ~15% more effective HP (except vs inf dmg, where it's 91% more)
  • .33 pierce armor is pretty close to .30 Hip pierce

So Cata feels like a terrible investment, unless you're facing lots of inf, compared to Hip. They're expensive, both res & pop. Good survivability, but it seems like you can either go Asa and get speed & more damage/pop (Asa are meant to be versatile, after all), or if you're facing inf, go Immortal, which gives you WAY more damage per pop (range helps with utilizing as much of that damage as possible all the time) by sacrificing speed. And against most inf-heavy comps, you don't need speed.

Maybe if you're facing siege-heavy armies, they work as a good hit squad that can survive until they get to the siege, and destroy it fast? They're just too situational, and get overshadowed by Asa.

 

But Cataphract is a better option vs Anti-Infantry like Longswordsman or Immortals. I would use this unit in many games.
PF2K do you compare 0.10 Infantry Armor and x0.5 Siege Bonus Damage to +6 attack? I think compared to this the Cataphract buff was not that big.

 

War Dog:

• Food cost decreased to 20, from 25.

game is now balanced

Also CrimsonCantab's writeup on why players still don't pick cataphracts is really good. Asabara outshine the Cataphracts on a cost or pop efficiency basis every where immortals don't, so unless it's ultra late game, with a lead, the player is (nearly) always going to go for asabara or immortals instead. Idk the best way of fixing it without making Asabara too weak, or Cataphracts too strong vs the other civs

 

I think cataphracts are kinda expensive for their stats - consider that they share the same base attack with asabara that cost less than half what a cataphract costs. Maybe they are too polarized against infantry and siege? Usually expensive units are somewhat strong all-around

 

tldr Being an overweight Persian Lancer stops them being Persian Hippikons?

 

Cataphract also have lot more HP, not considering the costs, but so he will stay longer on the field. His upgrade has more attack strength and the bonus and infantry armor makes it hard to be countered by spearman. I don't think you can compare it 1:1 to the Asabara. It is a different unit with a different role. Considering the cost they could have a bit more attack strength.