Celtic Bowman compared to other Bowman

[Donar]

Hi everyone,

thanks for the pvp patch, i think the changes come in handy for a better gameplay!

Nevertheless it seemed to me that the celtic Bowman (was originally with higher base DPS) got nerfed to a point where he could need a higher bonus damage.

Especially compared to toxote (age2) is the celt bowman a bit weak. Also compared to other bowman they do all better vs infantry. Besides a few bowman with a bit lower dps or lower dps (babylonian) it seems that this unit in outclassed in many ways.

What do you think about it, do i feel wrong about it?

 

[frogs.poison]

Celt bowman has an increased range multiplier.

Celts also have access to Druids, so you can add +25% damage to their DPS charts.

Oh, and Rites for a quick power boost to stomp an enemy army.

If they didn't have all that, then yea buffing Celt bowman's multiplier to 2x would be good, but they do have all that.

 

[Donar]

You mean the champion upgrade?

That's an argument but will probably kick in in golden age, whereas the celts could need a better archer earlier...

 

[frogs.poison]

You mean the champion upgrade?

That's an argument but will probably kick in in golden age, whereas the celts could need a better archer earlier...

Celtic Bowman is available in A3, having access to Druids with druid A3 upgrade at that point.
So, Celtic Bowman - 10.4 dps (With Druid), 1.5x modifier, 15.6 dps vs inf.
Egyptian Chariot Archer - 11 dps per pop no mods
Cretan Bowman - 8.5 dps per pop, 2.25x vs inf, 19.125 dps vs inf.
Norse Bowman - 7.5 dps per pop, 2.75 vs inf, 20.625 dps vs inf.

Thus, Celtic Bowman with Druid support (And honestly pretty much everything should have druid support as Celt in PvP, otherwise you aren't playing right) has DPS per pop almost on par with the Egypt Chariot Archer, except Chariot Archer's don't get any inf bonus until A4. Yes, DPS vs Inf is on the low side, but Long Swordsman in A3 beat out all other A2/A3 infantry units except TA due to their high armor, damage vs inf, speed, and, again, Druids.

In Champion Mode, you have to consider all aspects of a civ when balancing. Celts have nearly the strongest anti-infantry infantry. Thus, their Bowmen are better suited to damaging all targets, and just not as good at killing infantry as other Bowman.

And their A4 upgrade is pretty solid too.

So yea, think of Celtic Bowman like Egypt Chariot Archers - Higher all-damage, lower multiplier.

 

[Donar]

Not sure how to boost an bowman in the back since he is usually already full healed or dies in one hit.

So for me the comparison is more like Age 3 armory upgrades / champ if avalible:

celts 11,52 * 1,5 = 17,28 (with 25% bonus 21,6 which will probably dont be applied, very impractical and even with the bonus weaker then other bowman vs inf)
toxotes champ 12,67 * 2,75 = 34,84 (thats like double the celtic bowman has)
cretan 12,24 * 2,25 = 27,54
norse bowman 10,8 * 2,75 = 29,7

chariots are not compareable imo, they can be used to kite units like crazy, a big chariot army is always very fearsome. In the matchup celts vs egyptian the axeman champion outclasses the longswords anyway.


"(And honestly pretty much everything should have druid support as Celt in PvP, otherwise you aren't playing right)"

I think i playing it wrong then. Usually a part of the frontline have druid support, not the archers with full hp... also raiding parties are hardly boostable or fully healed units...


"Celts have nearly the strongest anti-infantry infantry"

The longswordsman is a strong unit in age 2 but after axeman champ they are a lot weaker. Also legions champ catch up. Not even talking about the royal guard or immortals. Especially immortals and champ axeman destroy longswordsman. Only possibility is a horseman tank with a very weak archer in the back.

 

[Donar]

I played a pvp sparta and calculated some numbers about the attack boost from druids. The boost is 10% in age 2 and the tech (+30% boost) means 10% + 30% = around 13%.

My full upgraded champs had 53 attack (full upgrades + wonder boost) and when they had boost they had 59.9 attack which is a boost of 13%. Same situation goes for Carpenton (36.6 attack with boost 41.3 attack) which is roughly around 13%. Not sure if this is intended but the tech seems to only give +3% boost.

If it should be +25% then in agree with the statement that i should use the boost more often. But if 13% is intended the attack of bowman further goes down like this:

celt bowman: 8 attack + 13% = 9.04 * 1.5 = 13.56
toxotes: 8 attack * 2,75 = 22
"Cretan Bowman - 8.5 dps per pop, 2.25x vs inf, 19.125 dps vs inf.
Norse Bowman - 7.5 dps per pop, 2.75 vs inf, 20.625 dps vs inf."
Frogs.poison

The gap goes into extremes if you calculate with armory techs, like i did above

Edit: The recent patch got a celtic bowman buff, thanks for the change devs!

 

[beer20574]

This. Hell, at 2 attack it would have been usable. Honestly surprised they went straight for 4 attack, letting them do the same damage per attack to an inca eagle or a huskarl as a Janisarry (assuming both have full upgrades, well besides elite) while shooting much faster

 

[Donar]

Well the bowman now has 11 attack * 13% = 12,43 * 1,25 = 15,53
Still so underwhelming for me compared to other bowman and especially that unit is age 3! So i don't really use them much. But other people say they would be good, don't know...

 

[Donar]

After some playing i think it would be most reasonable to move the bowman champ upgrade into age 3. In age 4 there is almost no reason to upgrade the bowman for whopping 1000 gold when there is carpentom availble, still the bowman is more pop efficient but carpentom are much more versatile at this point

 

[Donar]

Both bowman upgraded in age 3:
celts: 15.8 * 1,25 = 19,75 (even if you get the clunky mechanic with druids, would be around 22)
persian: 14,4 * 2,25 = 32,4

So not even the champ upgrade in age 3 would make the bowman compareable, especially not for the price of 1000 gold which is insane. The celtic bowman even loses against Throwing Axeman. Plus train time of 12 seconds and more cost then persian bowman, that makes no sense.