Making Legendaries from your Crafting Schools

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by BamBam, Jan 30, 2020.

  1. BamBam

    BamBam Spearman

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    I recently got a legendary arrow type recipe from a loot drop. I was excited, as now I could craft a legendary, and arrows are a type of gear you need a lot of anyway.

    Then I looked at the material requirements.

    Now, I understand legendary's are endgame content, and endgame content should take a while. But this.. mother of holy what the jez it was expensive.

    900 Guay Planks
    400 Silk
    200 Arch Tools

    At current global market prices, it would cost something like 150-200K to make A SINGLE ARROW. VENDORS, traditionally the least cost effective means of acquiring stuff, sell legendary's that cost like 15% of that. People sell the more desirable legendary's (likely acquired from loot drops or quest rewards) for around half of that.

    The alternative would be, "Make the materials yourself!"

    Here's the problems with that:

    1.) I don't have the recipes for all the stuff
    I could just play a ton and hope for them, or buy them on the Global Market. But global market recipes are often stupid pricey. And some simply aren't available.

    2.) Even if I did, it would take forever.
    All those materials are epic. Meaning they take 6 HOURS to make a single unit.

    1500 total mats x 6 hours a mat yields 9000 production hours. That's over a year of production. Per arrow.

    Now, you may say, wait, that isn't the total picture. You're right. The one year figure would only be correct if I made them from a single production facility, which isn't the case.

    What if I spec'd one of my civs to make this arrow?

    2 of the materials come from the advanced manufacturer's, which you are limited to 2 of. This would be the rate limiting step. 3600 production hours, 2 facilities, ... 75 days. Holy nope.

    What if I spec'd my entire account to make this arrow?

    Start-up costs would escalate dramatically, as I would need multiples of all those expensive epic recipes. 6 current civs. 3600 production hours, 12 facilities, 12.5 days. After I spent like upwards of 1mil on material recipes-which I don't have, I got like 3k right now- it would still take nearly two weeks for a single arrow. That I could sell for 100k. Maybe. It would take months to get my starting investment back.

    The only way this would work is if the game had some sort of joint stock system for legendary production, or a banking system. But no such mechanic exists, and nor should it. It's likely a waste of development time, as the cost of the legendary is simply too much.

    The kicker is I could likely make about 200k or more by selling the materials directly.

    No, I am not considering multiple accounts.

    In conclusion, legendary crafting is a massive value removed sink. I don't know if this was intentional or not, but the reality is there is no profit in crafting legendary's. The only reason to do so would be to help a rich clanmate out or something.

    I'll stick with loot.
     
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  3. Jeinx

    Jeinx Moderator
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    The epic versions of these gear's are far more affordable, and not so far off of the stats of the legendary ones. I'd recommend purchasing those recipes as they generally sell cheap. And instead of 400 silk it's 8. Save that legendary recipe when you are at end game level, producing all of those materials regularly, and have an abundance of them. (Keep in mind most of our players are currently producing all of these materials in all of their civs in abundance) The legendary craftables are for final polishing of gear, not early on gear pieces. The recipe you want is "Athena's Graceful Arrows" you should be able to grab it for 1-2k
     
  4. Jeinx

    Jeinx Moderator
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    As far as the intentions of legendary craftables, before we had them, epic materials, recipes everything in general had no value. The advanced epic materials that bring the huge coin you mentioned in your post brought nothing, players would vendor them, or sell them for 500c a stack. Now, you are able to produce these materials as a new player (provided you buy, or find a recipe) for large amounts of coin. Given these items were never in the game before, they are not needed. But for players at very end game level for a final polish of pretty orange gear to replace otherwise best in slot epics.
    Hope this helps. Take care ;)
     
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  5. Aryzel

    Aryzel Berserker

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    Over time you can get epic material recipes on all civs and you start building up a lot of the materials. The standard epic materials, that you can be build 8 workshops for in each civ end up being fairly cheap on the market place a lot of the time, they go up in price around season events that allow you to hand in the materials for season event points.

    However the advanced epic materials, that you can build 2 workshops per civ of, are the bottleneck for these items. As the proportion of workshops normal to advanced is 8-to-2, but the proportion used in the epic and legendary recipes are 9-to-6, so it drives the value of the normal epic materials to near nothing, at the moment you can buy some of those for just over vendor prices.

    As quick example, if you produced the 6 stacks of the advanced materials, you would have also produced 24 stacks of the normal epic materials, but you only need 9 of those 24 stacks, leaving 15 stacks that can only be used for seasonal event points. There is some cross selling of those materials to other players who might be short a particular material type, but they would in turn be producing materials they don't need. So the net effect is that 62.5% of normal epic materials only have use as storage until a season event or vendoring for 240coin a stack.

    Producing the items to sell is pretty much never worthwhile, if you make an item with below max stats then you will be selling it to compete with other people doing the same, so the sell price will be slightly below cost price, in effect becoming a way to sell the normal epic materials in bulk. Unless the recipe price is very low you are unlikely to ever make money off it.

    How I use the recipes is to make the item when you want/need it yourself, and then use Empire Points to to reforge the stats to what you need for yourself (item can't be sold after its reforged). If you're storage is getting full and its a long time until the next season event then make some items and sell to free storage space, though just selling the advanced materials and vendoring the normal epic materials might be easier.

    In theory, if you had a huge coin pool, you could make lots of items and have decent chance to get a near max item that you could sell, but I doubt that would be effective money earner.

    If the recipe material requirements were changed:
    FROM 9 normal, 4 advanced, 2 advanced TO 9 normal, 3 normal, 3 advanced
    Then the proportions would match production, but you'd have variations in demand due to some items being desired more than others. Or if we didn't want to exactly match it, leave some scarcity in the advanced materials, then proportions could be: 9 normal, 2 advanced, 1 advanced, in which case you'd have 12 stacks of normal materials by the time you produce the 3 stacks of advanced materials that you need. That would mean just 3 out of 12 stacks of normal materials would be event handins or vendor trash, reducing such waste from 62.5% to 25%, which would still let prices move towards vendor price, but much slower and maybe not before the next season event seeps up the price difference. Also could just make this change for just the Legendary recipes, leaving the epic items with the original proportions that would add some additional scarcity to the advanced materials.
     
  6. Andy P XIII

    Andy P XIII Moderator
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    The extreme difficult in crafting legendary items is very intentional. Legendary items had always been reserved for loot and stores. For us to allow players to create legendary items, we need to balance that extreme power with extreme costs. Otherwise the market would be flooded. We do not want to let our recipes dampen people's incentives to quest, either.
     
  7. Aryzel

    Aryzel Berserker

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    I don't mind difficulty or cost factor, just the unbalanced use of materials. Would be fine if material cost was increased instead to: 18 normal, 4 advanced, 2 advanced, to give a 25% waste factor of normal materials instead of the current 60% waste factor.
     
  8. Andy P XIII

    Andy P XIII Moderator
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    We want you to have leftovers to keep it from being a perfect system. Use the market and buy and sell, cooperate with others, etc.
     
  9. Jeinx

    Jeinx Moderator
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    The bottleneck of epic to advanced epic is also intentional, as the value of the advanced epic has always been and should be far more than the regular epic. We utilize events to clear out some of the regular epic materials from time to time, but decided against it for this winter event. We want you guys guessing what may happen. :)
     
  10. Aryzel

    Aryzel Berserker

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    Ah, but the overall system produces the waste, the selling/transfers between players just moves it around but doesn't change the overall numbers. 62.5% of all normal epic materials have to go to vendor or season event hand-ins, they can't go anywhere else.
     
  11. Aryzel

    Aryzel Berserker

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    Or as Jeinx said above:
    Now the problem has just shifted to the other side. The normal epic materials are vendor trash. I just think the proportions in the Legendary recipes should be adjusted, maybe bit by bit, to find a balance where value doesn't go to vendor price.
     
  12. Aryzel

    Aryzel Berserker

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    If there were 4 seasonal events and all had the hand-ins then that might be sufficient, but if thats going to be a bit random, or have long gaps, then adjusting the recipes makes sense.

    BTW, this isn't a big issue, just a pet peeve of mine, don't like bad system design
     
  13. Andy P XIII

    Andy P XIII Moderator
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    then you would have hated the system we inherited. again, we don't see extra resources as bad system design. we want rough edges.
     
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  14. Jeinx

    Jeinx Moderator
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    On the contrary. You can still craft and sell epic versions for approximately the same amount as you could before implementation of legendary craftables. Even during the non peak periods, you can still sell regular epic materials for much more than you could pre leg craftable implementation. If you could even sell them at all. Most were vendored.
     
  15. Aryzel

    Aryzel Berserker

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    It might be improvement (and i know proportions are same as original epic recipes) but can't call it good when over 60% of the normal epic materials can't be used no matter how much you want to use them. You can buy stacks for 500c at the moment. The season events were a fix, but if there will be a 9 month gap without that solution (halloween 2019 to summer 2020) then that means the system is not good for large part of the year.

    The Leg recipes fixed the demand problem, as the original epic recipes didn't have enough demand to use up the overall material production supply. But it also exposed the proportionality problem, thats the next fix needed.
     
    #14 Aryzel, Jan 30, 2020 at 6:50 PM
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  16. Aryzel

    Aryzel Berserker

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    Another solution is new recipes, perhaps in between the old epics and new Legendary ones, in terms of materials needed. There are some item gaps in the drop tables where there is no lvl 40 epic items (like scout spyglass) could make those crafted and have a different proportion to the existing recipes. That would really mix things up and you have a more complex economy. Make them require say: 200 normal epic material #1, 200 normal epic material number #2, 200 normal epic material #3, 100 advanced epic material (those are just made up numbers but you get the idea)
     
  17. Aryzel

    Aryzel Berserker

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    sorry for hijacking this thread a bit BamBam, was going to make a post about this next week and kinda jumped in here a bit instead.
     
  18. Jeinx

    Jeinx Moderator
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    It is fine. There have been suggestions and gripes regarding legendary recipes and materials since they were rolled out. We never intended for advanced epic materials to be worth exactly 400% the value of regular epic materials. This is why we left the spread the original developers had in place and did not design the recipes to use an equal part cost based on the amount of time it takes to make said materials. We are ok with the advanced materials being the breadwinners, and regular epic fluctuating in value depending on what events use them at one time. As Andy said, we did not design it as a cookie cutter perfect system that uses both materials at the exact same ratio as they are produced. We like having the market fluctuation. Players can invest in these stacks at 500c if they choose for example, and sell them at 5k or more during events. We have our reasoning for not including material dumps in this event. You will just have to stay tuned :D
     
  19. Andy P XIII

    Andy P XIII Moderator
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    We also have future uses for materials planned and want to leave room to rely disproportionately on other materials then, too. It all shakes out.
     
  20. Aryzel

    Aryzel Berserker

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    Fair enough, I do trust how you and rest of the dev team are making changes, so don't mind waiting, just wanted to point out what I felt might be a problem that could be improved.
     
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