Babylon Oxcarts suggestion...

[ByFstugan]

To me the Ox-carts make Babylon MUCH more boring to play due to them being created in TC, so I'd suggest for the sake of making them more smooth and fun to play one of this suggestions/changes:

1) Make Ox-carts possible to build with a villager in open terrain as a regular Storyhouse, with the difference that the finished product is a movable Ox-cart. It can still be manufactured in TC also.

2) Give Babylon a stationary storehouse alternative also, I don't care if it's twice the price. Ox-carts could still be made as usual, this would just be an alternative.

Babylon is a nice civ, Ox-carts is a good idea, but the creation in TC just brings the whole civ down to "I almost never play them" for me.

 

[Kulcsos12]

Don't remove one of the Babylonian feature because you think it is boring. Every civ is strong somewhere. Baby is strong in economy and the Ox Cart take a huge part in it. If you want them stationary, just send them next to the tree, stone, berry bush ect. If you don't Right Click on the them, the Ox Cart stay there and don't move to the next tree. If you want to build new storehouses time to time, like with other civs, just kill your Oxes and train a new one. Problem solved.

 

[gamevideo113]

The ox cart is definitely part of what constitutes babylonians, removing it would feel wrong. It's definitely weird missing storehouses, but theoretically if you use the ox carts properly they'll make your economy more efficient and more versatile. Every civ has something we like and something we don't like, for the most part we simply live with it

 

[ByFstugan]

My suggestion was in no case to remove the Ox-cart, seems both you who typed thought so? Read again, in both suggestions I made the Ox-cart stays, in the second suggestion it got an addition.

The issue I have with them isn't how they work when they are made - but how they are made. My first suggestion is that it should be able to build with a villager similar to a storehouse is built, but that the finished product would be a movable Ox-cart.

 

[Kulcsos12]

I understand what you wrote up there, thanks. If you can build the Ox Carts with Villagers too, when you will train them in TC? Never. Because you won't sacrifice that time in TC to train the Ox instead the Villager. This will be the same with stationary Storehouse too. This is not just a Civ design, it is a Balance too. While you build the Storehouses with other Civs, you can train your next Villager while you sacrifice the gathering time. With Babylonians, you sacrifice the TC time while your Villagers can gather resources continously.

 

[ByFstugan]

I understand what you wrote up there, thanks. If you can build the Ox Carts with Villagers too, when you will train them in TC? Never. Because you won't sacrifice that time in TC to train the Ox instead the Villager. This will be the same with stationary Storehouse too. This is not just a Civ design, it is a Balance too. While you build the Storehouses with other Civs, you can train your next Villager while you sacrifice the gathering time. With Babylonians, you sacrifice the TC time while your Villagers can gather resources continously.

Well, if you understood what I meant you wouldn't typed my suggestion was to "remove one of it's features", since no feature was to be removed in my suggestions, functions/stuff was to be added, nothing removed. You also talked as if I wanted the Ox-carts stationary wich never was something I said or meant - litterary the opposite was said. Also your "problem solved" was the opposite since my issue was about wanting to be able to build them without using the TC, so to delete one to use TC to build a new would just cause the "problem" instead of solving it.

What you talk about could be solved with longer build-times and/or higher price wich could make a nerf more than a buff eco-wise (just gain some smoothness to the game imo). The villager(s) occupied with building is also something that "cost" you something as well as the training time in TC does - it's not like they can build and gather resourses at same time. So balance can be kept with no problem. My suggestion was nothing about buffing Babylonians.

 

[gamevideo113]

My suggestion was in no case to remove the Ox-cart, seems both you who typed thought so? Read again, in both suggestions I made the Ox-cart stays, in the second suggestion it got an addition.

The issue I have with them isn't how they work when they are made - but how they are made. My first suggestion is that it should be able to build with a villager similar to a storehouse is built, but that the finished product would be a movable Ox-cart.

I'm sorry for not addressing your point properly. What i meant is that if Babylon had a normal storehouse then players wouldn't bother making oxcarts and this civ mechanic would kinda fade away, despite its benefits. It would be like giving egyptians the option to age through their town center or by building a temple - it wouldn't feel right at all. A civ has to be committed to the uniqueness, it can't just leave the choice to the player, because otherwise the player will always choose whatever option is the most comfortable for them and play every civilization like it is the same one. Babylonians have a way to make up for their villager-train-time loss by the way - gardens. The babylonian economy is still considered to be one of the best in the game despite having to train ox carts in the town centers.

 

[ByFstugan]

I'm sorry for not addressing your point properly. What i meant is that if Babylon had a normal storehouse then players wouldn't bother making oxcarts and this civ mechanic would kinda fade away, despite its benefits. It would be like giving egyptians the option to age through their town center or by building a temple - it wouldn't feel right at all. A civ has to be committed to the uniqueness, it can't just leave the choice to the player, because otherwise the player will always choose whatever option is the most comfortable for them and play every civilization like it is the same one. Babylonians have a way to make up for their villager-train-time loss by the way - gardens. The babylonian economy is still considered to be one of the best in the game despite having to train ox carts in the town centers.

Yes, I agree with what you say in general terms, however I don't think we would brake Babylon if villagers in free terrain could build Ox-carts, forget suggestion 2 with storehouse, was just an option. If you make Ox-carts build in free terrain by villagers go much slower or if i.e the main TC get paused while building you could very easy compensate for this feature. They still would be the only civ with a mobile storehouse, so it's not about changing that part.

Depending on how you balance it you can even make it nerfed - for me it's just a matter of how smooth they are to play; as I've said I really don't like to have to build them in TC

 

[frogs.poison]

Egyptians have a 18 second training time on the villagers - Not because of the Priestess of Ra, but because they do not tech up at the TC.

Babylon is similar to Egyptian in that they don't tech up at the TC, but the ONLY reason that Babylon's get a 15 second training time on villagers is because they also have to train their ox carts.

I believe it's been stated by a dev - Not sure if it was current or previous - that if Ox Carts could be built by villagers, or if Baby villagers could build storehouses, then they would have to significantly up the training time on Baby vills for them to be balanced due to Babylon's high innate training time reduction via Gardens. Having Ox Carts in the TC only is what makes Babylon balanced with both non-TC tech-up AND significant train time reduction.

 

[ByFstugan]

1) Egypts starts with a priest of Ra, and get same build speed on vills (at least with my standard gear).
2) I've addressed sollutions for balancing in several possible ways.
*Make build of Ox-cart by villager slower
** Pause main TC build while building Ox-cart with villager
*** Make Ox-carts built by villager more expensive

Since early comments here I've added this suggestions, and more - and I've made clear that in no way is this suggestion meant to boost Babylon in any way, for me it's just about how smooth they are to play - and also fine if using this feature (if added) they would be somewhat nerfed (only for them who use it).