Suggestions (PvE) for Some Underused Units

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by apolippo, May 8, 2022.

  1. apolippo

    apolippo Long Swordsman

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2021
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    3
    First of all, I want to let you know that I'm aware of the fact that PvE "balance" is not something that is cared much. However, I think balance changes in PvE can bring some new fun aspects to the game which are normally not used very much. I think there are a few units that are underused with fair reasons. Please hear me out about the balance change suggestions and correct me if my suggestions are not "fine" and if you find them not appropriate or overpowered.

    Cataphracts: Cataphracts are currently over-shined by Asabaras, both in damage aspect and in damage aspect pound-by pound. I suggest Cataphracts have one area damage like Champions do, without taking asabaras role completely (asabaras still have more damage output to single units, and are quicker when raiding)

    Gastraphetes: Gastras , after the introduction of Alexander the Great, become kind of invalid. Gastraphetes have roughly about 80-90 damage depending on gear while Toxotai have 70-75 ish damage despite only taking one pop. There is simply no point in training gastraphetes when you have a superior, and quicker moving unit in as early as Age II. Without unnecessarily making one of them dealing more damage than another, Gastraphetes could use a speed buff, or splash damage reduction in the base form without any advisors, or both! In that way, one can still reasonably train gastras if the enemy is mostly conists of infantry as they have more inf bonus damage.

    Royal Guard (Babylonian Infantry)
    Royal guards are underwhelming sadly, by their lack of pierce armor (visually wielding shields :p ) , and they are only available as late as in Age IV. I cannot even remember the last time I or any of my coop partners training this unit for ages. This is saddening, since I like the concept of this unit. The solutions I suggest for this unit :
    1) Give them 20% pierce armor (the same as upgraded longswords OR immortals ). This will help them resisting heavy fort fires or ranged units at range, making them a bit more self-dependant.
    2) Make them trainable at age III , so players can actually consider them worth training in mid phase of quests against infantry. When somebody aged to last age, it is almost pointless to mass train those units to take out the enemy bases when you have Lancers / palintonons/ chariots. So, if they are trainable at age3, royal guards can be used to defend against enemy waves early until one fully booms and create a more functional army.

    Lastly, I want to point out that none of the suggestions made here does necessarily come out of my mind. I heard those suggestions from the players overall the community. [ I loved the idea of cataphracts' having one area damage from Frogpoison :D ]
     
    #1 apolippo, May 8, 2022 at 1:00 PM
    Last edited: May 8, 2022
  2. Loading...


  3. apolippo

    apolippo Long Swordsman

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2021
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I just hope this post won't get ignored. Even though most of the celeste staff is pvp'ers, I know for a fact that they do care about PvE balance.
    They fixed the weird champion upgrade of Celtic Champions (it was previously 35% Hp, 35% Damage and +1 pop). Also, they showed love to underused units by giving them specific advisors , such as giving Lady Davicna for Shield bearers. It is especially sad for Cataphract which is such a cool and iconic unit but gets overpowered by Asabaras in nearly each aspect possible.
     
  4. Kulcsos12

    Kulcsos12 Hippikon

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2017
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    207
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Is Gastra underused just because the Toxotes got an advisor and became viable in legendary quests? Are you kidding me? You know what are underused? Farbjoðrs and Harjars. Seriously, whats the point of training them if you get acces to the Berserkers at the same time?
     
    ConradIII likes this.
  5. apolippo

    apolippo Long Swordsman

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2021
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I agree about Harjars completely, but Farbjo(?)rs are another story. All kind of battering rams are pointless to train in legendary quests, except Babylonian ram which have the most HP to resist even against elite units. Training battering rams in any legendary quest is pointless.
    About Gastraphetes, I disagree with you. Tell me, would you prefer to train a 80- damage dealing unit taking 2 pop or create a quicker unit with 70 damage and only 1 pop. If you instead train two toxotai, the damage outcome is 140ish, insanely overpowered even when compared to other archer units in other civilastions. However I am against to nerfing units in PvE because I don't care about op units in pve. That is why I want gastraphetes to be buffed instead of simply nerfing Toxotai.
     
  6. Kulcsos12

    Kulcsos12 Hippikon

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2017
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    207
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Actually, the DPS in the stat card don't tell you the truth about the real damage output. I don't have the correct numbers but these two units have different aiming time, arrrow flight time, reload time and real damage on hit. Gastras shot faster than Toxos, belly bow arrow fly faster thanks to its flat ballistic and take bigger damage on hit than the actual DPS on the stat card. This is compensated with the slower reload time what you can "skip" with "kiting" and when you press the Stop command your Gastras shoot the target immediatelly(!). In the other hand, Toxos have bigger aiming time and the arrows spend more time in the air (especially on long range shot) but reload faster. So, kiting with Toxos isn't as effective as with Gastras. In my opinion. Overall, both unit is good enough in a right hand. ;)
     
    apolippo likes this.
  7. Slyrevick

    Slyrevick Hippikon

    Joined:
    May 22, 2020
    Messages:
    166
    Likes Received:
    59
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I think gastras have more than 90 because of attack rate and bonus dmg
     
    apolippo likes this.
  8. frogs.poison

    frogs.poison Immortal

    Joined:
    May 19, 2020
    Messages:
    245
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    43
    First off, Cataphract's having 1 area damage wasn't my idea, it was somebody else. Just for the record.

    On the topic of Gastras, I would prefer both. I feel that Ptolemais should be repurposed as solely the Gastra advisor. I would remove both bonus damage portions frm Ptolemais, since between Gastra's 3x infantry boost and Greek Fire, Gastra's don't really need help with either of those units, and instead give them +30% MS (or 6.5 MS base) to help with their incredibly strong kiting capabilities, along with full splash damage immunity, given that they are a higher pop ranged unit, but have extremely low HP (Higher pop range tend to have significantly larger HP pools, but Gastra are only slightly tankier then Toxoes). As there is another Indian unit arriving with Splash Damage Immunity as their champion mode upgrade, I feel there is nothing wrong with giving Gastra Splash Damage Immunity via their advisor.

    With both upgrades combined, Gastra would once again become an incredibly strong deathball option, without overtaking Toxotes which would simply have much higher overall damage output for those who prefer a more passive style of Deathball.
     
  9. frogs.poison

    frogs.poison Immortal

    Joined:
    May 19, 2020
    Messages:
    245
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    43
    On the topic of Royal Guards, I've brought it up on the discord and would like to bring it up here - Do Royal Guards have a larger collision or hitbox compared to most other infantry? It seems that their hitbox is a good bit larger then that of Spearman, Shieldbearers, and especially Sappers, seeming to be almost Berserker size. If it is, I feel that making their box smaller, along with upping their movement speed to 7-8 would make them quite viable in PvE, considering that their overall defensive stats with Zu are quite solid, their baseline damage is tremendous, and even with their nerfed champion mode upgrade, they still have quite high building damage per-pop being better then most cavalry units and middling among infantry.
     
  10. frogs.poison

    frogs.poison Immortal

    Joined:
    May 19, 2020
    Messages:
    245
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Now, on to other units. The first unit type in PvE that could be looked at are ranged anti-ranged units - The Takabara shows that with enough range and damage you can make a perfectly viable deathball unit out of this and similar units. Sadly, most anti-ranged ranged units are simply incredibly understatted in raw stats, having either very low health per pop, low damage, low range, or a combination.

    Takabara's are probably the best example of the least "specialized" anti-ranged ranged unit, having double doses of range for it's upgrades as well as the lowest bonus vs range, sitting at only 2x bonus, in exchange raw damage stat, but a good number of other ranged units are only a single advisor or buff away from being able to match the Takabara - Notably the Balearic Slinger and Peltast, both of whom would be a viable deathball unit if they had a large range buff. We even have the Carpentom who almost never comes up in discussion of "sucky ranged units" despite being a very short ranged anti-ranged unit, due to it's incredibly high damage potential.

    Of course, there's also the Babylonian War Chariot on the other side of the spectrum, as despite having massive advisor support it's not even close to viable but instead can compete for worst unit in the game, mainly due to it's incredibly low damage per pop, as well as it's overall low health per pop in addition to it's completely lackluster range. Given how intensively it was reworked in PvP - Significant damage boost, gargantuan boost to EH vs range/siege, ect - something similar needs to occur in PvE. Fortunately most other similar units aren't in as bad a spot as the War Chariot, but it's something to consider.
     
    apolippo likes this.
  11. apolippo

    apolippo Long Swordsman

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2021
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I agree about most of the points you made about anti-ranged ranged units. About royal guards, I find your points interesting, I didnt think about them being underwhelming because of low speed. You said with epic advisor their defense become high enough. I don't know if BDP increases their defense against pierce attack enough (Some ranged attacks do not have bonus damage to benefit from BDP stat). I am instead obsessed with giving them pierce armor because it seems weird to me how, even such an age-2 classic anti infantry unit hypaspist can have pierce armor with an advisor but when it comes to Royal Guards, they have 0% pierce armor. Visibly, they wield shields at one hand :D instead of carrying their shields at their backs like hypaspist ( but they still have pierce armor :D :D ). All in all, even a speed boost by 1 or 1.5 would be enough to make them a bit more viable in legendary quests.
     
  12. Slyrevick

    Slyrevick Hippikon

    Joined:
    May 22, 2020
    Messages:
    166
    Likes Received:
    59
    Trophy Points:
    28
    you can increase their defense with Zahhak's Sword of the Undying ;)
     
  13. frogs.poison

    frogs.poison Immortal

    Joined:
    May 19, 2020
    Messages:
    245
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Yea, RG may be a bit lacking in the armor depart on further inspection, though again I'm not sure if pierce armor is the answer - Pretty much all bow/arrow units in the game get ~20% bonus damage vs infantry due to gear sources. On top of that, nearly every Archer typ unit has bonus damage vs infantry - Exceptions include Babylon War Chariot, Mounted Archers, Celtic Archer, and Elephant Archer. For Anti-ranged range units, the only one thats threatening in PvE is the Carpentom - All other's damage output is garbage and are thus non-threats, even in huge masses.

    With that said, RG did gain a .2 pierce armor buff in Champion Mode, along with a age reduction, being A3, as well as cheaper cost, and a reduction to their building damage nerf to 25% from 50%. They seem to be solid in PvP.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice