By PF2K on Jun 8, 2019 at 8:00 AM
  1. PF2K

    PF2K Lead Artist | PvP Balance Team Lead
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    Header_-_Week_3.png
    Hello there Celeste players! We are back with another Roman reveal blog.

    As we develop the Romans, each week we will be revealing the Romans to you building by building, unit by unit, and technology by technology. We are not just showing you what the Romans will be, but showing you how we are building them, who is building them, and also why we are building them the way that we are.

    This week we are not only revealing our first military building, which is called the Castellum, but we are also introducing one of the Romans’ most important units: the Legionary.

    If you would like to start with our first post on Houses, you can find it HERE.

    Castellum
    =========
    Though the Castellum appears in the Romans trailer, we have not yet explained it. As many of you deduced from its architecture, the Castellum is the Roman Barracks. It also serves as AoEO’s first special Barracks.

    As discussed in more detail in our Building Design blog, the Barracks is one of the 13 Common Buildings that every civilization in Age of Empires Online has by default and that always appear in a specific age. In almost all cases, every Common Building in every civ is identical. However, there are two exceptions, Improved Buildings and Advanced Buildings.

    The Castellum, however, stands out as the game’s only Advanced version of the Barracks.

    As an Advanced Building, the Roman Castellum still appears on schedule in Age 1, but it is simply much better than a regular Barracks. (Similar to how the Norse Outpost (trains units) is better than a Watch Post and how the Norse Longhouse (larger, garrisons villagers) is better than a House.) Here is how the Castellum appears in Age 1:

    In_Blog_Picture_Base_-_Week_3_-_Castellum_Closeup.png

    In_Blog_Picture_Base_-_Week_3_-_Concept_to_Creation.png

    The Roman Castellum is better than a regular Barracks because in Age 3, you can research the Praesidium technology that turns the Castellum into a mini-Fortress that has significantly more health than a regular Barracks and can attack enemy units as long as there are villagers garrisoned inside. Though we have not yet begun balancing the Civ, we expect that the DPS of the arrow fire will increase with every villager garrisoned.

    This mechanic is like that of the Babylonian Siege Tower. (In fact, we are fairly certain that the Developers imported this idea from their Roman design and planted it into the Babylonians. However, we found the Castellum to be such an important part of the Roman civ and the mechanic to be different enough when used in a rolling siege weapon that we chose to look the other way and use it here, too.)

    Here is how the Castellum appears after the Praesidium upgrade in Age 3:

    In_Blog_Picture_Base_-_Week_3_-_Praesidium.png

    Rome will have its share of brand new units and technologies, and the Castellum is a brand new Building and serves an important role in giving Rome its unique feel.

    Here is how the Castellum looks next to other civilizations' Barracks:
    In_Blog_Picture_Base_-_Week_3_-_Bacrracks_Lineup.png

    We will be saying even more about the Castellum as we reveal other details about other Buildings and Units in the weeks ahead. But for now, we want to introduce you to one of our favorite units in the entire civ, which happens to also train at the Castellum: the Legionary.
    Legionary
    =========

    In_Blog_Picture_Base_-_Week_3_-_Legionary_Closeup_2.png
    Just as they were throughout history, our Legionary is the backbone of the Roman army. However, we did not find a lot of specific information from the original civ design about how the unit would perform and where it would fit into the entire Civ. So we had to make some major design decisions.

    We plan to discuss our approach to designing units in a future blog post, but briefly, we knew that the Legionary needed to be available in Age 2 and make a large impact in the civ's strategy while not feeling like a clone of the other major infantry units in the game. And there are a lot of major infantry units already in the game, such as the Hoplite, Immortal, Long Swordsman, Woad Raider, Champion, Royal Guard, and Berserker. So our Legionary needs to be powerful and super cool to use, but in a historically accurate way that does not dull the impact of existing units in other Civs. And it needs to be available in Age 2 since it is the backbone of the Roman army.
    In_Blog_Picture_Base_-_Week_3_-_Legionary_Closeup_3.png
    So they need a hook. For instance, as historic Legionaries would throw a javelin (called a pilum) before rushing in with their swords drawn, we tossed around the idea of giving the Legionary a javelin ranged attack to complement its melee. But that felt too much like the Immortal. And as we need the Legionary available in Age 2, it would be irresponsible to turn this unit into a stronger, more easily available Immortal.

    Meanwhile, though we need the Legionary to be available immediately in Age 2, we sought for it to remain viable through Age 4.
    In_Blog_Picture_Base_-_Week_3_-_Legionary_Closeup_1.png

    To achieve this, the Legionary will stand out by being the only Age 2 unit in the game that has an upgrade both in Ages 3 and 4 (and also as it trains out of a mini-Fortress that fights back). This means that after you research Legionary Champion in Age 3, there will be another upgrade available for Legionaries in Age 4, called Bellum Romanum, which turns Legionary Champions into Legionary Elite, who are more mobile than regular Legionaries and have a Charge attack.

    (Side note: While the Romans often followed some chivalry-like rules of warfare, when they declared Bellum Romanum, the gloves were off and mistreatment of captives, torture, and violence to noncombatants were on the table. Bellum Romanum was the term the Romans used to describe "all-out war without restraint as they practiced against groups they considered to be barbarians." Bellum Romanum was inhumane treatment of those the Romans considered to be sub-human.)

    At a broader level, in a game that already features several Infantry-focused civs, we need the Romans to have great Infantry without feeling like just another Celt or Norse. We will discuss more answers to that question later. But rest assured, just because the Legionary will stand out does not mean that you will be mindlessly spamming them. The Roman army has many, many more useful units in its roster which you will see in time as we reveal them to you one by one in our weekly blogs.

    To quickly summarize what has been revealed so far in our blogs, here's a picture of a small Roman town that has all the revealed pieces in it:
    In_Blog_Picture_Base_-_Week_3_-_Reveals_Lineup.png
    In_Blog_Picture_Base_-_Week_3_-_Reveals_Lineup_2.png

    Thank you for reading, and we will see you all next week!

    Project Celeste Development Team

    What do you think about Roman Castellums and Legionaries? What would you like to see next? Let us know in the comments below!

    ========
    Missed the Roman Civilization's announcement? Find out about it HERE.

    Project Celeste is completely free and always will be. However, we gladly accept donations for our overhead costs, which are larger than we have budgeted. If you want to support us, you can do so HERE.

    Read every Romans related blog HERE.

    Tell your friends! Join our Discord HERE.
    ========​
     
    #1 PF2K, Jun 8, 2019 at 8:00 AM
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
    DraCConiaN, Robcore, zenorhk and 19 others like this.
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What do you want to see on the next blog? The top 2 picks will be chosen for next week!

  1. Age 1 Town Center

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  2. Age 2 Town Center

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Comments

Discussion in 'Romans' started by PF2K, Jun 8, 2019.

    1. Ardeshir

      Ardeshir Immortal

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      Incredible. Thank you, and thank you to the rest of the Project Celeste team. Really nice to see new unique garrisonables and a new type of building upgrade and barracks. Everything looks so polished! Really living up to the motto of being as good or better than the old textures and concepts. Will be real interested to see how PvP pans out with Romans in the mix. Though I'm sure after a patch or two at worst you'll be able to get balance right and things will be in better shape than ever and really fresh.
       
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    2. MsMuffins

      MsMuffins Woad Raider

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      Wow, legionaries look AWESOME *Drools*, and that's I presume in just epic gear (golden armour), Legendary back armour:hearteyes:, I can't wait to see that :D , mini fort barracks looks great! and sounds interesting :eek:

      Also a idea, but is it possible to add a perhaps 1 time use javelin to the legionnaires, and maybe its double damage or guarantee crit?, would be awesome, and keep the fact that they did have ranged weapon, but wouldn't be like immortals with their permanent ranged. But could be a pain to implement hmmm.

      Anyways as always everything looks outstanding! Can't wait to play with them :)
       
      #3 MsMuffins, Jun 8, 2019 at 10:43 AM
      Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
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    3. Kulcsos12

      Kulcsos12 Champion

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      Castellum is very nice but the I have an issue with the Praesidium. Its has bricks and tiles on top of a tent. Its looks a little bit weird for me. A "full-tent" or "full-brick" Praesidium would be better in MY opinion.

      About the Legionaries pila attack:
      1 time useage could be hard to implement but I have a better (and maybe easier) idea. Low rate of fire (alias "cooldown") with minimum range. This means the Legionari can attack with the pila first then move to melee fight. When the pila is ready to use again but enemy is closer than its min range the Legionari is attack with sword. After the last enemy is killed within the min range, the Legionari throw its pila and run to melee again. This is similar to the Immortal's combat behavior except the rate of fire of the ranged attack. While the Immortal shot his arrows in seconds, the Legionari throw its pila in every 10(?) seconds. This low rate of fire force him to move closer to the enemy and fight with sword.
      So, Age3 upgrade grants the pila attack while Age4 grants the charge after the pila. It would be cool and deadly.
       
    4. Kulcsos12

      Kulcsos12 Champion

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      I just leave this here ;)

      Roman Legionaries attack and idle animation (with Celtic Swordsmen)


      note: this animation made by the original devs​
       
    5. Andy P XIII

      Andy P XIII Moderator
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      Yes, we’ve seen that one. So have our animators
       
    6. PharaohDex

      PharaohDex Villager

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      Firstly, hats off to you guys the models look incredible. Secondly I just wanted to throw an idea out there for the unique mechanic, maybe a passive ranged resistance like higher pierce armor could be cool for them to simulate the testudo. But if it would only apply from the front so that you could still do damage with ranged but you would need to flank them, like in the total war games how shields work. Anyways best regards guys.
       
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    7. Andy P XIII

      Andy P XIII Moderator
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      Thanks Pharaoh. I’m not sure the game can easily set defense stats based on whether the attack is only from the front.
       
    8. PharaohDex

      PharaohDex Villager

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      Yeah I was afraid that there could be a engine restriction, never the less may be you guys will find some other way to use it.But until then roma invicta!
       
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    9. RASPUTINPRIME

      RASPUTINPRIME Woad Raider

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      Love the concept and design of both Roman barracks and Legionary. Both seem very well researched and thought out within the broader scheme of the Civ and in contemplation of balancing it for integration with the other Civs. Can't wait to see the next blog!
       
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    10. PF2K

      PF2K Lead Artist | PvP Balance Team Lead
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      We said the Legionary isn't going to have a ranged attack. We didn't say that there won't be another unit that throws pila!

      And yes that is the Epic gear set for them. ;)
       
    11. Kulcsos12

      Kulcsos12 Champion

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      Veles confirmed :D
       
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    12. Gaiacheck

      Gaiacheck Spearman

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      Okay so I expect a lot of hate but I think it's BAD

      First, trying to make unit "viable from age 2 to 4 with 2 upgrades" is dumb. Does this imply that current units that come to play in age 2 are useles in 4 because they don't have additional upgrades? This is really forcing the issue on legionaries. Instead of designing them well you just make them stronger.

      Secondly I hate the fact that only ideas you have about making those units unique come as re-used traits from other civs. Ranged attack and charge? Is that really the peak of your designing ability?

      As it is now they will just be stronger long swordsmen or age 2 Harjars. This will not feel unique at all.
       
    13. Exclusive0r

      Exclusive0r Immortal

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      Nice artwork .. just keeps getting better and better .. who'd have thunk it that a small team would bring us back the game and take it further into the realms of awsomeness ??? Just great !!! Can't wait for the test drive LoL
       
    14. Exclusive0r

      Exclusive0r Immortal

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      'Hmm no hate but curious ...
      Maybe wait to play them before assuming what they are like ?? You know ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME :p:p:cool::cool:

      Then the 2nd point .. Civ's in ancient times all used the basic warfare techniques they saw in battles against each other, so it's a bit hard to use a light Sabre or Phaser ...
      Perhaps you might suggest an example ??

      Roman Weapons
      Swords (Gladius & Spatha) The gladius was the primary weapon of the Roman legions. ...
      Javelin (Pilum) ...
      Spear. ...
      Dagger (Pugio) ...
      The dolabra was a tool carried by all soldiers. This was a double sided tool with an ax on one side and a pickaxe on the other side. Other tools such as knives with sharp hooks were carried to cut branches for firewood.

      Helmet
      Ring Mail Body Armour: a single ring mail body would consist of around 50,000 rings of steel
      Scale Body Armour: was made by creating rows of metal scales which were attached to a leather undergarment using a wire.
      Plate Body Armour: this was used throughout the legions of the early Roman Empire. Made from iron, each of the plates would be attached to a leather undergarment.

      The Ballista - giant crossbow
      The Onager - catapult
      The Scorpio - dart thrower

      The Roman cavalry was certainly not the primary weapon of the Roman army, which heavily relied on its infantry to win battles and wars. However, the cavalry provided several vital services which were essential for expanding Rome's territories.
      • Scouting and intelligence gathering
      • Skirmishing conflicts before the battle began
      • Flanking maneuvers (Charging into the flank or rear of the enemy's units causing mayhem)
      • Protecting against the enemy's cavalry maneuvers
      • Chasing down any fleeing enemy
       
    15. Andy P XIII

      Andy P XIII Moderator
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      Gaiacheck, you may want to come back later after we have announced the entire roster of units before concluding that our decision to make the legionaries this way is mistaken. There is a lot more going on with the Romans than a single unit. We never said the Legionary was intended to be the peak of our designing ability. But I can tell you are trying to get a rise out of us, so I won’t bite. I get it, though. At this point in our reveal blogs, you could not possibly know enough about the Romans to have an actual insightful opinion about our design ability, so you are saying that to get us to show you other stuff now to prove you wrong. You will just have to wait, as much as I’d love to prove you wrong today.

      With regards to their multiage viability, you may see that many civs indeed do feature units that play greater roles in age 2 and then become diminished after later age units become available. I’m not sure how that idea could feel radical and forced. Here, we are suggesting that perhaps the Romans will not feature a big Age 3 or 4 infantry like a Hoplite, Berserker, or Champion.

      As you may know, there are several Age 1 and 2 unit’s that remain viable in Age 4, such as Sparabara, P Bowmen, and C Long Swordsmen. Those units all have multiple upgrades that keep them viable. Though they all have just one upgrade, they have other techs that keep them viable (such as Shield Wall, Blot out the Sun, and the Bard Hall techs).
       
      #16 Andy P XIII, Jun 9, 2019 at 2:15 PM
      Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
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    16. Gaiacheck

      Gaiacheck Spearman

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      I really dislike how you went from "we want to make Legionary unique" to "this felt too similar to x unit" and concluded with upgrade that is just copy pasta from multiple other units and you just found clever justification with "belly romana".

      I really want to get positively surprised but so far project celeste is really conservative and I would not like this civ to be a big blend of random feature from other civs and maybe highlighted a different unit or structure. What is this even? Unit/building lotto? What did you pull from the box? barracks and age2 swordsman?


      You have to look at game itself and then at history and think what can work for the unit. The problem with celeste devs is that they lack courage and imagination. Look at newer legendaries. 2% upgrades or items that our absolutely destroying original design (+range on heavy armour is the best example)

      I can think of dozens of ways to make roman units unique. Let's name a few that are stupidly easy to implement:

      Legionary/Auxilla could be able to equip different gear to alter how unit plays. Equip javelin/light spear/sword and you get anti-ranged, anti-cav or anti-inf unit depending which you choose.

      What if they threw javelins with limited ammo that replenished over team or near baraxilla? This would differentiate them from immortals by limited the number of strikes and would be very historically accurate.

      What if villagers could construct roads that greatly increased movement for units out of combat?

      Maybe bonuses based on formation?

      Maybe upgrades that can turn other formation units (spearmen, auxilla maybe evem villagers) into Legionaries.

      What if there was ability to promote specified units to centurion or insignia bearer for certain boosts.

      See? there are multiple more interesting ways to design legionary than giving it damn charge and calling it unique.
       
    17. Exclusive0r

      Exclusive0r Immortal

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      Thank you for the examples (like I said no hate), but Like I also said how do we know how Romans will play out ?
      And also don't forget the "game mechanics", building a completely new Civ that has to fit into the basic game mechanics ( I mean you cannot rewrite the whole core with a small but dedicated team) means sometimes be happy with what we get.

      As far as I am concerned, I trust the fact that the Celeste Team has the best interests of the players at heart, they pulled this from death and gave us hours of fun. I also see from your examples that that you didn't just flame.
      I would say lets see how this pans out. I hope you enjoy the Romans when we get that far and who know's what the Celeste Team will finally publish ? They seem to know a lot more than me and maybe you ??
      Pax :D:D
       
      #18 Exclusive0r, Jun 9, 2019 at 3:25 PM
      Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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    18. Andy P XIII

      Andy P XIII Moderator
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      We have showed you one unit. Do you really think we are showing off the most exciting piece of the Romans in Week 3? Insult us all you want, but you don’t know what the plans are. Fear not, we are following GPG’s plans very closely. The guy who designed the Romans for them has seen our work and blessed it.
       
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    19. Gaiacheck

      Gaiacheck Spearman

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      This is what scares me the most. Also I don't know where I am insulting you, I am just questioning your design decissions and mark some inconsistencies within your own dev blog.

      Was he the same person who designed the Norse? Hope not.

      You know it's fine that you respect original devs but ultimately this is who killed the game 7 years ago. Remember that.
       
      #20 Gaiacheck, Jun 9, 2019 at 4:30 PM
      Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
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