By PF2K on Nov 16, 2019 at 9:30 AM
  1. PF2K

    PF2K Lead Artist | PvP Balance Team Lead
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2017
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    1,077
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Header_-_Week_21.png
    As we develop the Romans, each week are revealing them to you building by building, unit by unit, and technology by technology. We are not just showing you what the Romans will be, but showing you how we are building them, who is building them, and also why we are building them the way that we are.

    We have six units remaining, and today we are revealing the Eques, which is an Age 3 Cavalry unit and the final true Roman Cavalry unit. We are also going to reveal our Age 4 Town Center and Age 3 Walls.

    Eques
    ======
    Eques_Closeup.png

    Roman Eques with Epic Gear

    Early in the Roman Republic, Rome's wealthy soldiers comprised the Cavalry. But as the Romans began to expand, they found their horses to be outmatched. So they emphasized their elite Legionaries and while they never totally abandoned their own cavalry, their strongest units were outside cavalry hired from neighboring provinces, most notably Gallic Horsemen (from the Celtic parts of Europe) and Numidian Horsemen (from Northern Africa in modern day Algeria and Tunisia -- neighbors to Carthage). Since historic Roman cavalry is a complicated subject, it was fitting that it was particularly difficult for us to navigate these design decisions. And the road for the Eques (plural: Equites) to make our roster was fraught with peril. He almost didn't make it, and in doing so, we had to sacrifice. Let’s drill into it.
    The original Roman plans called for at least 4 different Cavalry units: the anti-archer Eques (in Age 2, from the Castellum), the Officer unit Decurion (Age 3, Praetorium), the anti-archer Numidian Horseman (Age 3, Auxilia Camp) and the basic (all-around) Gallic Horseman (Age 4, Auxilia Camp). Meanwhile, the Castellum was set to have four units -- Spearman (Age 1), Legionary (Age 2), Eques (Age 2), and Veles (Age 2). Again, recall that Roman military buildings are categorized based on their military rank and historical origin of their units and not by what category of unit they train. So while most civs train Infantry from their Barracks, the Romans will train their homegrown units in theirs, which is called the Castellum.

    The Auxilia Camp was to also have four units: the Cretan Bowman (Age 2), Balearic Slinger (Age 3), Numidian Horseman (Age 3), and Gallic Horseman (Age 4). Again, this building trains Roman’s hired mercenaries.

    Finally, the Praetorium, which trains Romans unique Officer Units, was set to have either four or five units: the Centurion, Decurion, and three more possible Officers we will discuss later.

    We have analyzed Rome’s Age 2 at great length, but briefly, there was simply no room for the Eques in Age 2. The Legionary had to be in Age 2, so with the Age 1 Spearman the Castellum was pretty full. And while we still needed an Age 2 Cav, putting that unit in the Castellum would have then left the Praetorium empty. (We could have slid a different Officer unit into Age 2, but then Rome would have had five Age 2 military units plus the special Age 2 unit we haven't shown you yet. That would have given Rome the largest and easily the most powerful Age 2 roster in the game. Our hands were tied: we needed our Age 2 Cavalry unit to also be our Age 2 officer. Therefore, the Decurion forced his way into Age 2, and the Eques was homeless.

    We then turned our attention to Age 3 to see if there was room for the Eques. Generally, Age 3 is pretty open. Since Age 2 covers the major unit types and counters, civs can go in many directions in Age 3, which is when civs gain the most new units. (On average, civs gain four or five military units in Age 2, at least five or six in Age 3 and about four in Age 4. However, we cannot afford to add dead weight. If we create a single unit that serves no function then we have failed. Every unit in the civ needs to earn its spot, and the Eques is no different. And Rome's Age 3 will end up with nine units, so the burden is on us to justify everybody.

    Of those nine units, we have already announced five: the Cretan Bowman (Auxilia Camp), the Centurion (Praetorium), the Battering Ram, the Pontifex, and the Enneris.

    Age 3 was filling up fast and we had multiple Cavalry competing for a spot. Meanwhile, both the Eques and the Numidian Horseman were slotted as anti-archer Cavalry. We could have plausibly modified one of them, but there was no obvious solution. In Age of Empires, Cavalry is the customary counter to Ranged units. Since the Roman homegrown Cavalry was fairly pretty standard, if not a touch weak particularly to other cavalry, being a standard anti-archer unit fits perfect. Similarly, Numidian Horsemen was light Cavalry that rode a small breed of horse that excelled in stamina and harassment (similar to the modern day Berber horse) but fell easily (and at times famously) to Gallic Horsemen who road larger and sturdier breeds (closer to modern day Andalusians). So they are classic anti-archer units, too.


    Even if we considered both Ages 3 and 4, we had room for at most two of these three units. The large, horse Gallic Horseman practically screams Age 4, especially with the added context that historically, they countered the two other units we were considering for Age 3. That left one slot in Age 3. The Castellum had no Age 3 unit, and the Auxilia Camp was occupied then (Cretan Bowman). We considered scratching the Gallic Horseman, but that still would not solve the fact that both the Equites and the Numidians were essentially the same unit. And we don't need two anti-archer Cav at the expense of losing an anti-Cav Cav. Meanwhile, a light Cav just doesn't feel like an Age 4 unit, and slotting the Numidians in Age 3 would double up the Auxilia in Age 3 and leave it empty in Age 4. So the Equites, who were squeezed out of Age 2, somehow managed to squeeze the Numidian Horsemen out of their job in Age 3. So we had no choice but to honorably discharge the illustrious Numidian Horseman. That’s a tough pill to swallow. Around the Mediterranean, Numidian Horsemen are perhaps the most famous of all ancient cavalry, and there is no question that they were far superior to the Roman Equites. It is always upsetting to cut a unit. It hurt to cut the Veles, and it hurts to cut the Numidian Horsemen.

    But just look at those Equites. They are absolutely stunning. We had some concept art, but Chaos and Happy Smurf took it in an even better direction. The concept art gave our horse those handsome braids on his mane. But the rider's helmet, armor, and shield are all ours. By the way, take note of his gear, and keep him in mind before Halloween goes away.

    Eques_Spotlight.png
    (Andy's note that PF2K absolutely does not want to publish but is doing so as a favor: We love the Numidian Horseman and are just gutted to see him go. If we ever visit another civilization in North Africa, you can be sure that we will look these guys up. While we do not have any plans to make the Phoenicians/Carthaginians, it would be a lie to say that we didn't consider leaving them some room when we cut some of these Roman units. Not only were the Carthaginians famous for their Numidian Horsemen, but they were also famous for their navy. For that matter, they famously had light, javelin-throwing Velites-like units. Again, we have no plans to build the Phoenicians, and the last thing we want is to over promise or inflate expectations. But were someone to one day expand in that direction, we hope they find we left them plenty of room to grow in some very fitting directions that would give that kind of a civ a nice head start. Just like some earlier Roman units that the original Devs discarded found their way into the Babylonians and Norse, it would be lovely if some units that we discarded could find their way to another, arguably more appropriate, home. Again, we aren’t sure we can pull off an 8th civ, let alone that we would consider the Phoenicians, but just as the original Devs left room for later growth, so should we. And here we are leaving a nice little package of different units just perfect for another civ to use. Now do Andy a favor and don’t let PF2K hear you ask about this ever again. He’s got enough to worry about.)

    Now that we have shown you every Unit and Technology in the Castellum and the Auxilia Camp, let's have a summarized view on these two Buildings, shall we?
    Castellum_Wrapup.png
    AuxiCamp_Wrapup.png

    Age 4 Town Center
    =================
    Age4_TC_Closeup.png
    We are cleaning out our closet and haven't yet shown you the final levels of some buildings. Of any building model in an entire civ, the Age 4 Town Center is arguably the single most important.

    Revised_TC.png

    Getting to Age 4 must look and feel grand. We had concept art for the Roman Town Centers, but Happy Smurf and Chaos quickly agreed that what they had for Age 4 simply was not grand enough and looked more Age 3.

    Age4_TC_Lineup.png
    In all, our four TCs went through countless design changes over the months. They were some of the first buildings to break ground and still seem to always get tweaked a little every few weeks. Compared to the concept art, you can see our guys bulked it up and added a second level. We love this design and think it perfectly captures the essence of the Romans.

    Now that every Roman Town Center has been revealed, let's look at all of them together!
    TC_Progression.png
    (PF2K's Personal Note: Don't get startled by the different colors in the Town Centers, they are only Player Colors and the one on the right is what you will see on all Town Centers, given you are Player 1. Yes, yes... I see the Red one too.)

    Age 3 Wall
    ==========

    Age_3_Walls.png
    The Romans are going to have 2 wall upgrades, similar to Persians, Norse and Greeks. As stated in Week 9's Blog, we had to create all unique Roman wall models from scratch. You have already seen the Age II Walls, now we are showing you the Age III model, which was created by HappySmurf and Chaos and textured by PF2K.

    Looking back, these Walls have been in the pipeline for months. Happy, Chaos and PF2K started on these back in February and were putting the finishing touches a couple of days before we announced the Romans in May. But like a lot of things, Chaos was still fidgeting with them the other week.

    Here are both Age II and Age III wall models (next to Towers of the same Age) for the Roman civilization:

    Wall_and_Tower_Lineup.png

    With this week in the books, we are now down to the last five Roman Units. Legitimately, looking over the entire Roman roster, they read like a Top 5. (Well, maybe the Centurion cracks the Top 5, but you know what we mean.) These remaining units are in various stages of design, and two of them haven't been started yet. So we don't know which, if any, of them will be ready next week. But you can be certain as soon as they are cooked, you will see them. In fact, it wasn't until a few hours ago that we finally agreed to show you the Eques. That's how hot out of the oven we are serving up units.

    Thanks so much for your patience and support, and we will see you soon!

    Project Celeste Development Team

    What do you think about this week's blog? Let us know in the comments below!

    ========
    Missed the Roman Civilization's announcement? Find out about it HERE.

    Project Celeste is completely free and always will be. However, we gladly accept donations for our overhead costs, which are larger than we have budgeted. If you want to support us, you can do so HERE.

    Read every Romans related blog HERE.

    Tell your friends! Join our Discord HERE.
    =========
     
    Robcore, solar, Alzerus and 12 others like this.
  2. Loading...


Comments

Discussion in 'Romans' started by PF2K, Nov 16, 2019.

    1. elassi

      elassi Villager

      Joined:
      Oct 1, 2019
      Messages:
      3
      Likes Received:
      8
      Trophy Points:
      3
      I'd go to age 4 on a "Don't reach age 4" quest just to see that TC.

      Great work!
       
    2. Charlix

      Charlix Villager

      Joined:
      Nov 29, 2017
      Messages:
      3
      Likes Received:
      1
      Trophy Points:
      3
      just something minor, but the gear on the eques which is actual gear is a heavy spear and the next section states they use a light spear.
       
      happysmurf likes this.
    3. PF2K

      PF2K Lead Artist | PvP Balance Team Lead
      Staff Member Administrator

      Joined:
      Oct 24, 2017
      Messages:
      250
      Likes Received:
      1,077
      Trophy Points:
      93
      upload_2019-11-16_13-30-16.png
       
      Andy P XIII, happysmurf and † CmK_ like this.
    4. Exhalted

      Exhalted Villager

      Joined:
      Jun 29, 2019
      Messages:
      2
      Likes Received:
      1
      Trophy Points:
      3
      Damn those cav, walls and tc look as roman as they possibly can, love the gold accents on the walls too. However, am just wondering, is that wobbly jelly like part in the wall because of the uneven terrain? Or is that designed intentionally? Most noticeable on how the blue roman ribbon bends up and down in some parts.
       
    5. TheSpaniard

      TheSpaniard Champion

      Joined:
      Jan 15, 2019
      Messages:
      96
      Likes Received:
      170
      Trophy Points:
      33
      Those Age 3 walls look absolutely amazing. Honestly, I loved the Age 2 walls/towers as well (especially the unique Roman wood), but I like the (seemingly logical) idea that, as Romans "age up" and "go through time," they go from less permanent structures (while conquering) to more permanent stone structures (as they plant roots in conquered areas). But yeah, the age 3 walls--freaking spectacular.

      Sad to hear about the Numidian horseman, as is everyone, but I totally agree with the assessment that development room should absolutely be left for the possibility of the [REDACTED].

      Great work as always. Let me have an impatient, childish moment and say WHEN YOU SAID THEY GOT PUSHED BACK TO 2020 PLEASE MAKE IT JANUARY 2020.

      :D
       
      PF2K and Andy P XIII like this.
    6. Aryzel

      Aryzel Long Swordsman

      Joined:
      Feb 14, 2018
      Messages:
      22
      Likes Received:
      21
      Trophy Points:
      3
      Awesome stuff, keep up the great work, don't burn yourselves out over christmas
       
      TheSpaniard and Andy P XIII like this.
    7. Exclusive0r

      Exclusive0r Immortal

      Joined:
      Nov 5, 2018
      Messages:
      255
      Likes Received:
      115
      Trophy Points:
      43
      Well socks blown off (poor nurses) ...... coming out in Dec so can't wait for 2020 yo !!!!
      Celeste team rocks big time :):):)
       
      Andy P XIII likes this.
    8. Andy P XIII

      Andy P XIII Moderator
      Moderator

      Joined:
      Nov 14, 2017
      Messages:
      218
      Likes Received:
      352
      Trophy Points:
      63
      Feel better, Exclusive! We will be here for you when you are back
       
      Exclusive0r and MainMan B like this.
    9. RASPUTINPRIME

      RASPUTINPRIME Woad Raider

      Joined:
      May 27, 2019
      Messages:
      26
      Likes Received:
      45
      Trophy Points:
      13
      Great update. Sad to hear the Numidians got left behind in Africa but I understand the justification for it. We can only imagine all the awesome ideas left on the cutting room floor with the original dev team.

      I can't believe how fast this year has gone.
       
      Andy P XIII likes this.
    10. ABullishBear

      ABullishBear Woad Raider

      Joined:
      Nov 6, 2019
      Messages:
      25
      Likes Received:
      14
      Trophy Points:
      3
      Love it, except for the fact that you seem to have cut the horsemen.
      If the unit is well in the design stage already, why not instead include it as a roman advisor unit a la somatopylax?
       
    11. Lwt

      Lwt Spearman

      Joined:
      Nov 12, 2019
      Messages:
      5
      Likes Received:
      4
      Trophy Points:
      3
      Looks sweet. You guys really nailed the art style.

      Just one question: Couldn't you just make the numidian horseman an advisor unit or is there some reason you don't want to make those anymore?
       
    12. Andy P XIII

      Andy P XIII Moderator
      Moderator

      Joined:
      Nov 14, 2017
      Messages:
      218
      Likes Received:
      352
      Trophy Points:
      63
      We decided against advisor units for several reasons. The biggest one is that they are surprisingly cumbersome to make. Since they don't use gear but have different gear for each level, we would need to make 4 separate units for each one. So they would be significantly more work than a regular unit. Meanwhile, players do not use them very much, so we cannot justify the additional time and delay that doing them would cause. We still have 5 more units to go. Having another 5 after these would set us back significantly. In the face of the last two civs (Babylon and Norse) not having any Advisor Units, it seems reasonable to conclude that the original Devs were phasing them out. We actually do know the names of the two advisor units they once planned, but, again, it looks like they would have scrapped them.

      Honestly, if we had time to make 4-6 more units, I would just as well get a head start on another civ. Or use that energy on some other content.

      I know some players really like advisor units, but right now, they just aren't worth the resources. We'd rather do something else with that time and energy.
       
      TheSpaniard likes this.
    13. Ardeshir

      Ardeshir Immortal

      Joined:
      Apr 8, 2019
      Messages:
      403
      Likes Received:
      204
      Trophy Points:
      43
      A cool unit tech tree that is also theoretically really tech-gated (no a2 cav), and the last variant of production tech style we haven't yet seen (only the second 2 facility tree [e] and only the second with no age 2 cavs [c], cavalry split across basically a melee and a ranged production building [new])? Awesome!

      I can't wait to rush them :D :D :D
       
    14. MechSmith

      MechSmith Spearman

      Joined:
      Nov 24, 2017
      Messages:
      13
      Likes Received:
      24
      Trophy Points:
      3
      It took me a moment to realise that the red walls/towers/TC were because you needed to showcase different ages/tech levels, but for a moment there was a part of me that excitedly exclaimed "are they going to announce the ability to change colours?"

      Sometimes i do a little friendly PvP with a friend, and we both agree that though we've got champion mode turned on, the greeks fight 10% harder when they're red.
       
      TheSpaniard likes this.
    15. Ardeshir

      Ardeshir Immortal

      Joined:
      Apr 8, 2019
      Messages:
      403
      Likes Received:
      204
      Trophy Points:
      43
      If pvp was a bit more active, I think being able to choose 2-3 of the colours as a preferrence before you queue might be possible. Right now though it'd be a lot of work for a small cosmetic gain that a small fraction of the playerbase benefits from. I'm not shooting down the idea entirely because I intend to push for it on the other side of Romans release, but for now all you can do is choose who gets player 2 (red) or 1 (blue) in arena, and sparta is just a coinflip.
       
    16. Lwt

      Lwt Spearman

      Joined:
      Nov 12, 2019
      Messages:
      5
      Likes Received:
      4
      Trophy Points:
      3
      Fair enough and completely agree.
       
      Andy P XIII likes this.
    17. Andy P XIII

      Andy P XIII Moderator
      Moderator

      Joined:
      Nov 14, 2017
      Messages:
      218
      Likes Received:
      352
      Trophy Points:
      63
      Age 2 does have the Decurion, so there technically will be cav, and they will be bruisers. But expensive and with build limits.
       
      Ardeshir and happysmurf like this.
    18. Ardeshir

      Ardeshir Immortal

      Joined:
      Apr 8, 2019
      Messages:
      403
      Likes Received:
      204
      Trophy Points:
      43
      Build limits? Interesting!
       
    19. TheSpaniard

      TheSpaniard Champion

      Joined:
      Jan 15, 2019
      Messages:
      96
      Likes Received:
      170
      Trophy Points:
      33
      Yeah they previously stated in the blogs that officers will be capped. Similar to the Norse chief, but probably more than 1.... if I had to guess, probably like 3-5, depending on what the balance team makes of the officers.

      Speaking of the Norse, I've been lamenting a lot recently the fact that the Norse got so many of the things that were meant for the Romans. I can't remember if anyone has mentioned it outright previously, but it seems all but certain that the infantry being able to build military buildings was probably originally a Roman thing, right? Given the historical nature of Roman armies doing some field engineering/building? And I thought recently... war dogs, too. I mean, my favorite line of all time in a play comes directly from the Roman epic from Shakespeare, Julius Caesar, as uttered by Marc Antony: "Cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war." And of course we know the Veles became the Skirmisher.

      Don't get me wrong, I'm going to love Celeste's Romans through and through. They will be unique. And much love to the Norse! But man... makes me sad thinking about all the Roman things that the Romans will never get to do because of the Norse lol. I wanted to see my legions building Hadrian's wall, dang it!
       
      #20 TheSpaniard, Nov 19, 2019 at 2:42 PM
      Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
      Alzerus, happysmurf and Andy P XIII like this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice