PLEASE Return LOS Items!

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by FullSized, Dec 14, 2017.

  1. FullSized

    FullSized Villager

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    Ok so I know this is somewhat controversial. So I'll try and lay it out with pros and cons. Back in the day when Microsoft was still running the game they introduced consumables and nurfed the crap out of a lot of stuff to "encourage" players to buy Empire Points in order to buy consumables so they could keep up with where they used to be before. As I recall this is when they removed "Line of Site" from the Bows and Arrows. I guess they wanted you go buy spy glasses and spam them in front of your army. The point is that it had nothing to do with balancing the game, it was just a marketing ploy. So now that that is no longer an issue it would be awesome to get the LOS restored to at least some of these items.

    For example the "http://aoedb.net/items/2234/35" Arduinna's Hunting Bow. This was once the best LOS item you could get. The recipe even dropped for it so they were expensive because they required philosopher stones to make but they were also readily available. After microsoft nurfed all the LOS a great many of them had been created before the nurf and they maintained their LOS even though no new ones could be made with the LOS bonus. In the end there were so many around that pretty much everyone who wanted them could get them up until the game was shut down.

    LOS is obviously pretty important. You can't shoot what you can't see. It seems to me at least that its a little silly to have an archer who can shoot much farther than he can see. Baring a physical object blocking your patch an archer should be able to see much farther than they can shoot. Being an archer in RL I can testify that in an open field there is no possibility of not being able to see as far as I can shoot. Obviously the original creators agreed with this b/c they included a LOS bonsus usually equal or almost equal to the range bonus of at least several of the bows and arrows.

    The point is that there was no balance reason to remove the LOS bonus and it would be great if we could get that back on things like the Arduinna's bow, pharaoh arrow, and other stuff like that.

    Some people will argue fervently against this. I would wager that in almost every case these are people who managed to get their hands on some of these items after the relaunch but before they were nurfed to remove the LOS again. Obviously they have a significant advantage in mission running and simply enjoying the game over people who don't have and at present can never get these items. On the one hand they don't want an item that they consider extremely valuable to become common place as they feel it diminishes the value. On the other hand they are praised a loved by people they co-op with for their ability to light up the map and make it possible to actually see what you are trying to look at.

    Neither of these arguments should have any bearing on returning LOS items to the game. First its just simply unfair that some players have items. Especially these incredibly desired items that somehow kept their LOS bonus while the ability to get it now its completely denied to all other players. Second whether they found it in a loot drop or paid 100k coin for it they have been able to use it now for weeks or months while everyone playing since couldn't get it no matter what they would be willing to pay. The items have paid for themselves in full. Besides that its not like they could unequipped it and sell it. Once its equipped its monetary value is equal to what the store will give you. So 500c or less.

    In the end there is no game balance reason not to have archers be able to see what they are shooting at. There is also no legitimate justification for player who have these items to get bent out of shape over others being able to get what they already have. So please return these items and undo yet another huge Microsoft grief.

    (P.s) Thanks a TON for bringing the game back :)
     
    Jeinx and musictopia like this.
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  3. FullSized

    FullSized Villager

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    So apparently all of these items are still in game. New players can't get them and have serious disadvantage over the old players who got them grandfathered in. I'm not suggesting that the devs dont have the right to do whatever they want. I'm not even suggesting that these items be nurfed for those who have them now. I'm just asking to have them put back in the game so the new players supporting the community can enjoy the same advantages as those who simply found out about it a few months earlier.
     

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  4. Andy P XIII

    Andy P XIII Moderator
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    Your argument that there is no benefit to nerfing line of sight items seems pretty persuasive to me. I haven't heard anyone argue that the PvE quests are too easy with those items (though I assume that is something some would argue). Your argument that they were removed by MS to incentivize players buying empire consumables is interesting, though I am not sure that was the case. (I am not sure it was not the case either. I just don't see a ton of evidence proving it.)

    But your argument that one player having LoS items is somehow gives another player a disadvantage seems misplaced. Regardless of what items some other player has, that gear does not make a legendary quest is any harder or easier for me. The competition in PvE is against the AI, not against other players.
     
  5. FullSized

    FullSized Villager

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    I can't be sure either that MS removed them for that reason. All I know is the timing lined up and when they removed it I asked one of the moderators who would visit general chat and thats what he told me. But he may have been speculating as well.

    You are right that the competition is between player and ai but my only point is that if one player can do a mission like soloi for example and can see to the max range of his ballista or gastra then he can move through much faster able to take out the elite ballista camped all over the main base. Another player like me who can't see what he could otherwise shoot at has a much smaller chance of moving through the map fast enough to get the secondary bonus for finishing early.

    I now deal with it by building a line of forts along with the age 4 advisor Xanthe to give me LOS so I can shoot at stuff. This cost a LOT of resources just so I can see but it works. Don't get me wrong I'm not about to complaign after all the work done to bring the game back. It would just be nice to have this minor change for the benefit of quality of life in game :) I certainly wouldn't want anyone having these items to have them nurfed too but ofc I would like at least the chance to get them also.

    Thanks for at least thinking about it!
     
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  6. Blind

    Blind Villager

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    Andy,

    I have to agree with FullSized on this one. Before I state why, thank you for giving us a great game back again. The game seems to be running smoother now than I can remember way back then when MS had it going. You guys have changed a lot of stuff. New quests, difficulty has been tweaked, empire store has a ton more stuff to buy with points. The consumables glitches and cheats has been fixed. There is a lot that you guys have done right by us as the gaming community is concerned Andy. Kudos to that. But was it really necessary to nerf LoS? For what reason? Maybe if we knew why, then we can understand or argue the point better. If it was due to the damage that was huge so the whole arrow or bow or whatever was removed, then maybe just nerf the damage slightly no?

    Ok so here are my 2cents.

    Prior to MS taking the game away I had all cities to lvl 40 with every possible gear piece that gave me LoS boosts. It helped a ton to move through the map at ease because you could see exactly what was ahead. Now I struggle because my Ballistas cannot shoot at their potential because they just simply cannot see far enough. I mean I got owned from the dark by ballistas being out of my los. All I saw were projectiles coming. Also early lvls do not really have decent range items tbh. Only a hand full of items that are sold in some stores and that is about it. At lvl 40 there are more to choose from apart from the great ones that was removed.

    Some will argue that you will learn the map so you will know where everything is. Usually those arguments are by the same players having got the LoS items and are using them already. To those I would like to say there are some of us albeit not many by the sounds of it, that actually do not have tens of hours a day to spend on here to learn some map that you in anyway can only play every 7 days. For those of us that has time limits due to work, families etc, it would be a huge help to be able to be part of the possible pool to get the said items that boosts LoS. That being said, Ai can through some coding become very difficult to foresee as things like "AI Change" or "Different Spawn Locations" could be implemented then those with LoS bonus items sure as can be will have a huge advantage to having a fairer game than those of us without LoS items, and then I wonder what those that said learn the map will say?

    I mean as far as I know, the LoS items cannot be used in pvp? Maybe I am wrong I don't know, but I am not a PvPer so I only play PvE. So if it is not used in pvp then I simply do not understand why we also cannot get our hands on these items. It is LoS, not huge bazooka like damage increase that made it break the game.

    Also, lastly, I just want to add that not every player is great at this game. Not every player can solo Legendary maps and get the bonus rewards, and then there are some that also cannot even manage to last 5minutes in legendary maps solo. Hell, I know players that cannot even manage lvl 4 missions because they just are not good, but they love this game.

    They play this game to spend time with their friends and family that play this game. Hell even little kids play this game. Yes, skill does have a huge role in it, but so does equipment. Some players takes a very long time before they grasp what they need to do exactly. Some are totally bloody clueless. Some are huge boss players that runs through maps like they running from their mother in law who is chasing them with a shotgun. I just think that we should consider all players and how it affects the ones left outside the circle too. Those that has the LoS items, they really do not give two hoots about anyone that does not have it.

    If those that have the LoS items that does not drop anymore, get angry because you want to implement it for everyone then maybe you should start checking their coin transfers and transactions. I bet you will probably find some coin sellers in those bundles of players, and by you implementing it again, they will know their money making abilities will slow down a lot because players will have the chance of (A) getting the same items that they have been selling for hundreds of K a piece, and (B) Their selling of gold for real money will take a dive because people will be able to buy the items from more than just a small few people.

    Me for one, I play this game to have fun. If I get killed over and over because of Ai in the dark then the fun aspect goes right out the window. I am all for a challenge, so please do not think I want it easy because i don't. I just think it is fair to have the same items available for pve for every player that plays this here wonderful game that you guys have brought back to life.

    Cheers

    Blind
     
  7. Andy P XIII

    Andy P XIII Moderator
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    I had nothing to do with bringing the game back, but I am sure @Luciano, @Ryddag, @cad39again, @Kevsoft and the others appreciate our sincere thanks. (They made me a mod only recently, and I have nothing yet to show for it. haha)

    For the record, I tend to agree that LoS items should be returned. I haven't given it tons of thought, though. It's not a huge concern of mine, and I understand there are two sides to the story. I don't think I have ever had much LoS gear, even back in the day. But I can see how having it and then not being able to have it would feel really frustrating.
     
    #6 Andy P XIII, Dec 19, 2017 at 2:10 PM
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
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  8. Jeinx

    Jeinx Moderator
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    Making OP versions of old gear that did not exist in game while not allowing LOS gear that existed in the game for years to drop makes no sense at all. It is not like they are worried about things becoming too easy, or they wouldn't release new gear and advisors. It' not like they are concerned about its effects on the economy. Heck, they should bring back snare and 17.6 gauntlets, it is kind of on par with the course. What would anything hurt at this point?
     
    #7 Jeinx, Jan 9, 2018 at 12:44 AM
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  9. smileyguyx

    smileyguyx Moderator
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    A few things i'm unclear on - when the Celeste Project came out, items had LOS as well, but now they no longer do? So a couple of people might have items with LOS and max range?

    Regardless, while I like powerful equipment as much as the next guy, I think having maximum range as well as LOS is too powerful. Rather than reduce both, or remove LOS altogether, I'd prefer they be separate items. I feel like there are Best in Slots for certain units and I really dislike how that discourages different play styles and ultimately makes games feel repetitive. By splitting it into two, you'd have to choose one or the other and maybe compensate with something else - maybe another unit or equipment. Hopefully that'd add some variety to gear choices and playstyles as well as give reason to collect beyond one set per civ.

    Speaking of LOS though, perhaps the Scout (or equivalent) could be considered for being producible. With a Lens of Menes they can see quite far and it is frustrating that it can't be replaced without coin (not gathered gold from a gold mine or trade caravan if that makes sense).
     
  10. Blind

    Blind Villager

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    Yes, when they started there were LoS items in game. Only some, select few included got these drops before it was removed from gear. Some players still have the bows and arrows that gives really decent LoS. Like the heavily LoS orientated Arduinnas bow, that gives huge LoS, range and good damage. Now, they only have range and ok damage. Unlike the poor LoS that gallic arrows gives. With Xanthe on, the arrows and hand carved wall brace as well as decent lookout, they light up over 80% of the map in age 4 without even leaving their base with 1 fort. Now to me, i think it is totally unfair that some got this and 98% give or take of the rest of us do not.

    Every person has their own right to say whether or not they think LoS is OP or not, but me for one have had enough of getting killed by unseen enemies in the dark. Trust me, it happens. Gastras LoS now does not allow you to see a ballista till it kills half your army. I dare not say anything about my woad raiders LoS. So the only way to deal with this is to have one big ass long row of forts built as you go up the map. Not only is it time consuming, but those of us that try really hard to improve our game play to the extend to be able to solo a legendary at least just about always misses the time mark for the early completion. Why would anyone think that decent LoS is cheating? It is not. Every person plays their own way. We already got to deal with having to often change advisors for different maps, is it really that hard to allow us the benefit of LoS like some others have?
     
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