New Legendary Consumables - detailed suggestion

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Aryzel, Apr 19, 2021.

  1. Aryzel

    Aryzel Hippikon

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    Bit of a long intro so feel free to skip down if you wish :)

    Intro
    So there was a bit of a discussion on Fri in discord about legendary quest difficulty for average skilled players, and how some quests have early attacks that can be very hard for more average players to be ready for, or to get good enough to really deal with it even after many attempts. I was going to make a longer post on arguments for moving some early attacks into optional triggers, but I think that point got across, not necessarily agreed with but was understood. One solid point that players were making was that if people have trouble they can just use consumables. Which is correct, but the consumables available aren't really the best suited to the task, so I decided to think about what might be better options and give some suggestions.

    Problem with existing consumables in Legendary quests
    Existing consumables are either too weak, all the units get smashed by Legendary quest units, or too strong. The main consumable to use if you need to beat a Legendary quest are Labour of the Empire (age 1 - summons 12 villagers), Resource of the Empire (age 3-gain 5000 of each resource), Priest of the Empire (super converting priests) each of those really change a quest from 'I'm struggling and need a bit of help' to 'I've too much help, the consumable is winning the quest for me'. It would be nice to get more appropriate help, to make quests still fun but take sting out of problems that players might be struggling with.

    Goal of new consumables:
    • Consumables should help player with specific problem (early attack I can't deal with) or a smaller general problem (I'm slow getting my economy up to speed), not be a 'win the game' button.
    • Consumable should not be a huge effect in mid-late game, it should blend into the rest of the players progress as the quest continues. Summon units should be similar in stats to units players can make themselves, and should count towards pop cap, so aren't a way to field extra large armies.
    • Consumable shouldn't be the first thing players turn to, or make players feel like they should use consumables even if they don't need the help. This basically means it should be a bit expensive/slow, so using it costs a decent portion of the cost of the quest rewards.

    Consumable Outlines
    So consumables below are based as solution to scenarios, what would a player want to do if they were able/faster. Note for units summoned, they benefit from Armory upgrades, milestones and Advisors (note that for advisors that name specific units those generally don't work as the names don't match exactly). So the stats are without those upgrades added, so the units are not stronger than the players own units.

    The summon units correspond to 14pop (12 for fireships), all are hard counters to specific threats and are basically what players would build themselves if they were fast enough etc.

    EDIT 2021.Nov - the unitstats links below have all expired, they were leg geared version of the units listed and comparable units. Will recreate if i've time and if its needed. The excel sheet has the suggestion stats for the units.

    Attacked by Infantry:
    - Gladiator Long Swordsman (based on celt long swordsman as inf anti-inf, after reviewing options
    https://unitstats.projectceleste.com/?build=07d02ae9a970586a7d7623e4fd8deeaa526734810e7da92d624d1fb8
    - Gladiator Bowman (based on Babylonian Bowman as ranged anti-inf, after reviewing options
    https://unitstats.projectceleste.com/?build=3cba6682f253dd00d13054b7699802172e49577402d59200370fcb07

    Attacked by Ranged
    - Gladiator Slinger (based on Egyptian Slinger as ranged anti-ranged, after reviewing options
    https://unitstats.projectceleste.com/?build=7c4e2f08a715fd118cd45ee4c11e72272b3f88b311ad481cf5c6b43f
    - Gladiator Sarris (based on Greek Sarris as cav anti-ranged, after reviewing options
    https://unitstats.projectceleste.com/?build=7acd082a1ef14f7327499cc2bb48525c1d1eb7c630b59ab1b9557ffa

    Attacked by Cav
    - Gladiator Spearman (based on Roman Spearman as inf anti-cav, after reviewing options
    https://unitstats.projectceleste.com/?build=5d76120bd0f156244eba3a536c11a14c1e6a1dd13f6b0d97aed09b7f
    - Gladiator Horseman (based on Norse Horseman as cav anti-cav, after reviewing options
    https://unitstats.projectceleste.com/?build=244888557141e40a15d70baf50c217bb3cea2eaf2ad1602ae32fa3af

    Attacked by Ships
    - Gladiator Fireship (based on any fireship)
    https://unitstats.projectceleste.com/?build=03244256cceda08ee2df9e31b60bf71178b87667835fa73c5db97e0a

    Attacked by Siege
    - Covered by Gladiator Horseman

    Attacked by Everything
    - Gladiator Sparabara as tanky units after reviewing options
    https://unitstats.projectceleste.com/?build=2917635b62778e1dd9afd65f3218903b37aa7115adff6ef082285bb6


    General Help Consumables
    - 5 villagers age 1 - effectively similar to the wood gathering elephants but bit more generalised as just villagers
    - 500 of each resource age 1 - a more reasonable boost for players than the 5k resources and is age 1 instead of age 3
    - 1500 of each resource age 2 - a more reasonable boost for players than the 5k resources and is age 2 instead of age 3


    Cost, Cooldowns, Recipe Sources
    100 epic material (5-10c per material typically) = 500-1500c
    1 special npc store coin sink material (1500c per material) = 1500c
    Total Cost: 2000c-3000c per consumable

    Cooldown - 10min, with same classification as existing consumables, this is long as should be something to get over a struggle, not a continuous assistance from repeated use.
    Age 1 - usage requirement for all the summoned units as in Leg quests the enemy is already established and you can have waves of all types straight away, regardless of what age you are in.

    Source - These should be shop recipes, maybe new Gladiators recipe shop in Rome! The reason is that these should be available to all players, particularly players that don't play so much and so well that they have a lot of coin. The recipes should not require 200-500k coin to buy in market, also adding lots of new Leg recipes to the drop list would dilute that drop chance a lot too. Therefore my suggestion is a new recipe shop in Rome with all these recipes for sale for say 25k a recipe, that would also drain 275k coin from each player that gets them all. Casual players can save up for them, slowly collect them, and using their own materials can build the consumables themselves. The market for these consumables is not the very top players and the recipes should not be cornered by those players because they have the most coin.

    DETAILS
    https://ibb.co/jZ5kpDh

    Sheet of existing and these suggested Consumables with unit stats for comparison
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Ao61pzQyDTPILsaH6f_XTx-fXo/edit#gid=391160061

    Sheet of existing and these suggested Consumables with costs for comparison
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Ao61pzQyDTPILsaH6f_XTx-fXo/edit#gid=563732147
     
    #1 Aryzel, Apr 19, 2021 at 3:42 PM
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
    frogs.poison likes this.
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  3. gamevideo113

    gamevideo113 Champion

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    The way i see it, regular consumables are just for comfort, whereas empire consumables are there for when you actually need help or want to finish the quest faster. I don't think Labor of the Empire helps you excessively, and doesn't really feel like an "auto win button", since a player that doesn't know how to manage their economy and spend their resources will still gain little benefit from Labor of the Empire. Would it be cool to have another tier of consumables? Definitely yes. Is it needed/warranted? In my personal opinion, not really
     
  4. Aryzel

    Aryzel Hippikon

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    These new consumables wouldn't really be for people who don't know how to manage their economy and spend resources, its for people who do know those things, but aren't as fast or efficient as the top 10% of players. Players who play several quests a week but not so much that they know/remember what each quest will throw at them and occasionally need help for a few minutes to overcome a problem. This middle range of players could use bit more support I think and this would open up a whole pile of new quests that they could attempt and have fun on.

    I'm a pretty solid player but there are definitely quests I sometimes struggle on and having some of the above suggested consumables to take the edge of a early attack or provide just the right help would be really nice. I find the existing labour/resource consumables excessive and don't enjoy using them outside of going for a score in Crete, they take the fun out of the quests.
     
    #3 Aryzel, Apr 20, 2021 at 12:20 AM
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
  5. Aryzel

    Aryzel Hippikon

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    Doesn't seem to be much interest in this, so removing the suggested data from the excel sheets, so people don't get confused if they are just looking at existing consumables. The attached image has the details anyways in case someone wants to look at it in the future.
     
  6. Aryzel

    Aryzel Hippikon

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    Suggestions are back in the sheet along with another idea. Slightly reduction in the workshop materials required and instead add in some new special npc shop materials that are part of the crafting recipe as a coin sink.
     
  7. frogs.poison

    frogs.poison Hippikon

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    The "Specific Counter A3" consumables would, ofc, be very solid - There if you get into a spot of trouble, but won't win the game for you. Could likely be in-line with the cost of the more powerful consumables we have now, like Fortress.

    However, the resource-oriented consumables? Powerful. 5 villagers in A1, even if they are ungeared villagers, is 100-150% more resource gen depending on quest. And the flat resources? Insane value - at 500 of each resource, you get to A2 AND get 2nd TC + market +vils/caravans on basically any A1 start.

    Then you have to go into balance in terms of coin sink - 100k coins for 1 item? Lower tier players won't touch it, top 1% likely would only use them when doing harder quests. 10k coins for 1 item? Then yea, maybe lower tier players would use them occasionally, with top players likely popping them like candy. Somewhere in between, idk.


    Personally, I would divvy the resource ones up - No 1.5k resource in A2, no 500 of each resource A1, instead, 500 of 1 resource in A2 - Food, Wood, Gold, and Stone from different schools (Though wood/food/gold will be used far more often then stone, perhaps each one of food/wood/gold could also give 150-200 of stone?)

    As for villagers - It should be more along the lines of Wood Gathering Elephants rather then Labor of the Empire. So, let's say, 5 "Primitive Gathering Monkey", which gathers exclusively food sources at a somewhat higher rate then Villagers do - 1.5 base gathering speed and can be increased by standard tech, like the Wood Gathering Elephants.

    Also, tbh, I feel like Wood Gathering Elephants could be moved to A1, since Labor is also A1.
     
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  8. Aryzel

    Aryzel Hippikon

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    The 500/1500 resource ones are considerable, but as the currently option is 5000 resources A3, these being roughly 1/3 of the power down each step seems reasonable. Some Leg quests start in A1,A2 with roughly these additional resources on top of the base A1/A2 resource amounts, so its not out of line with the game, but gives players 'shit I need a jump start' to do a quest, without going into 5000 resource crazy situation and also giving it earlier for the quests where you start A1,A2.

    For the villagers, what is nice is that while its a big help, it also blends into your game. The Labour of Empire villagers are exactly like villagers you'd create yourself, they count towards your population cap and they gain upgrades just like any villager you create, so it feels more natural in your gameplay, just need something more in the middle ground from 12 villagers.

    On the pricing, I don't think I follow what you're saying. Price would be 2500 coin (roughly) per consumable, with devs to tweak as they feel makes sense. The recipes I suggest being 25k per recipe, so its something medium range players can get, picking their preferred ones first, or can just buy the consumables from the market without bothering with the recipe.

    The overall goal is definitely aimed at medium players. Top players don't need these, might use occasionally but its not aimed at them. Lower tier players probably won't get enough help out of them, they still need to get fundamentals right. Medium players just need some help, used at the right moments, not crazy amount of help like currently exists.

    Just my opinions/perspective of course.
     
  9. purpleganja

    purpleganja Champion

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    This is interesting. I think the lower ressources pop might be even more powerful than the A3 5k in the hands of someone who knows the game very well.

    When ressources are scarce, the same ressources are worth more than when ressources are plentyful.
    A1 starts are more often a scarce resource start game than A3 starts.

    There seems to be a lot of scripts that check for p1 events to unleash the bots into full attack mode or spawn scripted waves. In many maps, aging up too fast or stacking high ressources can unleash the bot earlier and ressources of the empire does just that. In some cases, popping it can make the map as hard of even harder if you are not careful. Having access to a smaller ressource boost that keeps you under the radar for longer while you prepare can be even more powerful in the end.

    Ps: I still like the idea of having more options to thinker and play with to make games that were hard become a much more relaxed experience by making the early game less tight. The wood gathering elephants are a very good example of a smaller cheaper boost that changes things a lot without going crazy, so I very like the idea of the food gathering monkeys consumables and smaller labor.
     
    #8 purpleganja, Nov 25, 2021 at 6:20 PM
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
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