Economy discussion

Discussion in 'PvE General Discussion' started by MsMuffins, May 19, 2019.

  1. MsMuffins

    MsMuffins Long Swordsman

    Joined:
    May 3, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Hi, I'm just looking for information on peoples build orders and if you use this, how many villagers per resource in general, although this could vary per civ so optional. And Any Economy tips you know. This will hopefully help me make the LMCG economy video/commentary guide for it.
     
  2. FinishedBlock21

    FinishedBlock21 Woad Raider

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2018
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Build orders are going to be different depending on quest, but the general idea is that you need your town centers and at least 2 markets up as soon as possible. So, let's say in a quest you start in age 3 with 400 wood and 400 stone. You will want to build your second town center asap using your starting resources and then you need to gather stone and wood for your 3rd tc and market. You also need to be gathering food in order to keep producing vills from your two tcs non stop. In quests where you need to defend with towers, you will need to keep gathering stone, otherwise you transfer your vils from stone once your 3rd tc is up. The best thing to do is keep checking your resources tab and making sure you are not over gathering any resource and that you are spending your resources at all times investing them in your eco, until you are ready to age up. Basically, if you are constantly producing vils and caravans from all tcs/markets and at the same time keeping your resources low, let's say keep them below 200, you're on the right track.
     
    Exclusive0r and MsMuffins like this.
  3. MsMuffins

    MsMuffins Long Swordsman

    Joined:
    May 3, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Hmmmm thanks for your input :), So I'm going to make a list of bullet points to perhaps mostly follow:
    1. Must get at least 2 markets and town centres up as soon as possible.
    2. Sustain caravan/villager output non-stop with appropriate amount of villagers.
    3. In certain quests where early towers are important, afew villagers dedicated to stone, if towers not needed, just a few to get the TC's up quickly.
    4. Keep resources in check at all times, invest some through market if stockpiling too much of any resources, keep investing/spending/building to be the most efficient.
    5. So aim for perhaps 2-3 villagers on food per TC to sustain constant villager production and then 1-2 on food/wood per market to sustain caravan production perhaps?

    I'll add a few more:
    • Focus on *huntables* for early quick food gathering
    • After markets and 2nd TC up, get storehouse for wood/huntable upgrades, (or stone if need towers).
    • Market placement should be far away to gain around 125 gold, with final upgrade should be getting 150 on every journey.
    • Beginners should aim for 30 caravans - 40 villagers perhaps?, when a new player has mastered macro should go for a caravan focused economy, with say 20 villagers and up to 60 caravans?
    • Solo trading gives base gold, co-op gives double.
    • Always keep Town Centres and storehouses as close to resources as possible for efficient gathering
     
    #3 MsMuffins, May 19, 2019 at 7:45 PM
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  4. Exclusive0r

    Exclusive0r Hippikon

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2018
    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    52
    Trophy Points:
    28
    'hmm great .. but I don't see "Houses" , I always put 1 guy just building houses until they are done ... and also there is a sweet spot for markets after 150 gold, that's it distance don't count no more. So practice where the sweet spot is. If you are too far you waste time as 150 is max. Also upgrade wood stone etc asap. same for troops. The store houses should not touch gold or stone it's inefficient ... a tiny gap and vills max out so don't just throw vills at gold.
    Oh yeh houses can be temporary defence .. so build in lines appropriately around TC
     
    #4 Exclusive0r, May 19, 2019 at 8:53 PM
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
    MsMuffins likes this.
  5. SAAD

    SAAD Spearman

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2018
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Finishedblock has the appropriate answer; there's no cookie cutter way of doing all the quests, they all vary.

    Typically I aim for the following based on army type.

    Wood - gold based armies

    Build second/third Tc asap to bolster villager production.

    Aim for 50+ caravans (especially for eggys)

    Atleast 30-35 villagers on wood

    During the early economic boom I prefer 15-20 villagers on food (much less for Persians due to paid labour).

    10-12 on stone when appropriate. Once you have your trade going sufficiently you can siphon off villagers from food and send to wood and stone.

    In typical legendaries I find myself with 100-120 villagers. As I begin attacking I begin killing them off prioritizing wood villagers as I typically have enough gold to buy wood and still have sufficient gold left. Also by this point most structures are already build and the only thing left to build is forward forts and watch posts for Los. I typically take the remaining 15 villagers from stone to be my forward building workers and delete all the rest.

    Food - gold based army

    This requires a more villager heavy approach.

    The real difference here is that you need a lot of villagers on wood in order to build all the farms.

    I typically end up with 40 villagers on food and 50 caravans. All wood villagers are transfered to food or killed off.

    Stone remains the same. I try to get a couple thousand food surplus and then kill off farmers because at that point I have enough of a buffer to be able to purchase food with gold if necessary.

    For most civs and most situations the wood-gold method is the most used.

    Geese
     
    MsMuffins likes this.
  6. SAAD

    SAAD Spearman

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2018
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Also just wanted to add a pet peeve of mine.

    Prioritize a straight and CLEAR path for caravans. A lot of players do not give caravans enough love. Do not build in their path and if there is something in their path delete it, cut down forests etc. Efficient gold trading is what makes or breaks a game.

    Always ensure that the market is clear of chokepoints/obstructions.

    Another tip for markets that most people may or may not know. If you make multiple markets at varying distances to the target Tc. The caravans will always automatically default to the maximum gold producing market regardless of which market they were created at. So you only need 1 market at the desired location. The rest can be made literally anywhere. The reason why I mention this is because on some maps, ideal market real estate can be tight and you want to make sure you and your coop partner can both comfortably fit a market there.
     
    MsMuffins likes this.
  7. RatherWatch

    RatherWatch Long Swordsman

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I try to get 'Conserve Stone' tech early (and 'Conserve Resources' for Babylonian) as I always end up buying more stone.

    Fish are gathered quickly by villagers, like huntables.
    Even quicker by boats.
    The fishing boat upgrades are quite significant.

    Many quests have waters partitioned behind your base where you can fish or set up safe merchant transport lines.
     
    MsMuffins likes this.
  8. MsMuffins

    MsMuffins Long Swordsman

    Joined:
    May 3, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Ok thanks for all your posts, Also I am aware a fundamental build order is quite frankly impossible since every quests is different and of course every civ is different, leading to quite a lot of different build orders on every legendary quest, it does seem absurd to make a build order to always follow however, key factors in economy can be covered like markets, town centres and such.

    I think I'll create a more up to date bullet point list tomorrow which will incorporate stuff that has been mentioned. Also sort of leaning towards rather than a economy guide through a possible generic build order, just make a top 10 useful economy tips in legendary quest video instead I think. What do you guys think of this?
     
  9. FinishedBlock21

    FinishedBlock21 Woad Raider

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2018
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Yep, better make a list of dos and don'ts
     
  10. Ardeshir

    Ardeshir Hippikon

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2019
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Just like PvP, stay off berries until midgame if you can (after spotting a hunt and securing it with a scout. Don't forget to split your workers across the animals to minimize delays from unit collision), and get the berry gathering speed tech just before you transition back to berries (likewise, get the hunt gather speed asap). Don't be afraid to double check a storehouse or keep them on a control group with other buildings to make sure you aren't missing eco tech while aging and fighting. Don't get farms and upgrades for them til you're going to need them (put the workers and resources back into other stuff to get your macro ahead faster. Get that age 2 market, and quick tcs on aging as a priority). I don't play the elite and legendary quests, but with anything pre-elite I know that overdefending instead of concentrating on booming often greatly slows down quests or costs me them. On that note, if it's an open map and both you and the ai are going to boom, don't be afraid to invest in harass. As long as you micro it so you aren't losing too many units and you can still keep booming at home, getting workers, units on patrol and undefended building kills with a handful of cheap raids can be just as decisive as pvp. Obviously this doesn't apply to a lot of the quests with tight chokepoints and pre-placed towers. If you're playing a civ with good cavalry or Norse with their war dogs, it's something to keep in mind. Plus, you get the benefit of scouting out the map because you already have units around the opponent's base picking stuff off, you know when the ai is going to try and hit you with rams or priests or cavalry and from which side of the base.
     
    MsMuffins likes this.
  11. MsMuffins

    MsMuffins Long Swordsman

    Joined:
    May 3, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Community Economy Tips

    More from PVE perspective, but some of these could be applied to PVP.

    1) Hunting, Berries & Farms
    • Huntables like deer gives fastest food gathering of all food resources, always prioritise first, Also shift click to quickly kill them all and place storehouse nearby for efficient gathering. Additionally to be even more efficient, space out villagers on each deer to avoid any collisions.
    • Berries should only be taken after any huntables or fish, and only with the storehouse upgrade for quick and efficient gathering, Again TC or storehouse should be close by to minimise seconds lost on walking to and from berries.
    • Farms is the final phase of food production, due to their high cost in wood, should only be used to boom in food & gold focused economies, wood & gold economies don't even need them. And in rare case like Babylon, gardens can give plenty of food so not many farms may be needed for say Lancer spam.

    2)Houses

    • Houses are always needed for Pop Cap, and altogether will always need 24 houses for 1200 wood, if you don't have reduce cost gear on them already. But some people make the mistake of just chucking down houses randomly, in certain quests, houses can be handy as a sort of temporary wall, Although legendary units will go through houses like nothing, they can be used smartly as sort of chokepoints, this is often seen more in PVP, but can be used well in PVE.
    3)Storehouses

    • Storehouses are quite important with their early upgrades and not only for effective placement for efficient gathering, but always remember for gold and stone, leave some space between storehouse and mine for villagers to mine, but not too much space.
    • As for upgrades, Key early upgrades is definitely the wood and huntables, stone can be good for early defence and stone conservation, but if there is little early pressure then focusing on booming and buying minimal upgrades is the way to go.
    • Also bare in mind this may depend on your economy style, food& gold focus more on food upgrades, wood& gold, just wood, in either case can get stone but can just as easily buy stone from markets when stone runs out.

    4)Markets

    • Markets are probably the most important part of your economy, it is imperative that you learn how to trade properly and efficiently.
    • In any leg quest you will need a market to trade resources, so putting them on a known ctrl+hotkey is basic and important macro.
    • So keep in mind, solo will give base gold for caravans trade, co-op gives double.
    • Distance between markets and town centres is a key part of trading, further away the more gold, however it will cap at 150, a common noob mistake is to put as far away as possible and think your fine as your getting 150 gold anyways. This is actually bad because 1 your caravans are travelling too far for 150 gold, 2 the final upgrade is useless in this case.
    • So, you will want to aim for a sweet spot around 120 gold(co-op), this can change depending on gear, but the idea is that once you get the final upgrade in market on Age 4 you will get to 150 gold and your caravans will be travelling at a optimum distance, making yourself far more efficient than someone trading much further away for same amount of gold.
    • Additionally you will want to keep your trade route as clean and clear as possible, never put a choke point for your caravans, this will slow them down to the point you wonder wheres your gold???, again you want to make your trade route as fast as possible so keeping it clear of buildings or wood is important.
    • Furthermore going for 2 markets to pump out caravans is the best for starters, if you can go for more markets only do so if you can keep up with resource cost of pumping out caravans on each market constantly, otherwise this is a waste of wood.
    • Lastly Caravans will automatically go to market which gives max gold, you can use this to your advantage when building markets and may only need 1 market at desired location, the other could be built elsewhere to save space or perhaps pump out caravans closer to trading town centre.
    • P.S Also always try to get the trade discount upgrades on market as early as possible for minimal resource lost in trading.

    5)Town Centres
    • Making town centres is a obvious and important part of your economy, pumping out more villagers = more resources = earlier boom = earlier push. So making more Town Centres to pump out villagers ia no brainer for most, but a mistake new players make is forgetting to build one straight away, most quests will give you enough wood and stone to build one straight away, in this case you will always want to, of course will also always want to get out a market as well.
    • So Simply build Town centres as soon as you can, ideally get 3 TC's pumping out constant villagers to boom your economy really quickly. And keep an eye on food production, you want to sustain the production till you reach the desired amount of villagers, this can be hard when huntables run out and have to resort to berries or farms, but never forget your market is your friend.


    6)Villager & Caravan Compositions


    • It is important to how you play to keep in mind how many villagers and caravans you build, more caravans = more gold to buy upgrades through market, more villagers to give one particular resource, like food or wood for the economic styles.
    • New players will rely on villagers more than caravans, advanced players will heavily rely upon markets through their macro skills. But generally in legendary quests, you will build as many villagers as what you need to get your economy going, its hard to pinpoint a specific guideline amount of each, as of course its different for each Civ, EG egypt caravans focused, and only really need villagers to build frontline forts for ele production.
    • But my advice would be as you get faster and more efficient to slowly rely upon market and caravans more than villagers, and once you've mastered macro, find your own sweet spot for each civ in terms of villager & caravan compositions.

    7)Resource Management

    • Resource management is pretty simple but very effective for keeping your economy booming efficiently, quite simply you just need to keep a eye on your resources and make sure none of them are stockpiling too much, if say you have too much gold lying about, invest it through market to boost your economy that much quicker, eventually this will become habit and you should get faster and faster.

    8)Economy Styles, food & gold, Wood & gold

    • As I mentioned before your economic styles will heavily influence how your economy develops, food & gold economies like Norse (berserker), Celt (Woad or Champs), Babylon (Lancers), will each need much more food production to sustain the output of these units when pushing. From my experience, a good 20 on farms in late game is enough to deal sustain production however if you prefer to go through markets with minimal farms or none at all, this is also fine.
    • Likewise Wood & gold will need much more wood production, Greek ( Gastaphetes), Persia (Archers), Egypt (Eles only need gold), the greek and persian example will need significant wood production to boost your economy fast enough and sustain the heavy wood cost of these ranged units, so can advise around 30-40 on wood.
    • Egypt being so unique with only needing gold (khepri), the only civ of its kind to do this and so the easiest to sustain with mass caravans.

    9)Early defense quests

    • In the case of quests where you will get attacked early and simply not enough time to boom your economy, a focus on getting up walls/guard towers/fortresses depending on optionals will be important.
    • However always keep your economy going at same time, of course keeping yourself and you partner alive is more important to actually beat the quest, BUT if you want to the beat the quest efficiently and in time, always keep your economy moving forward while you defend, so simply keep a balance of focus between economy and defenses.

    10)Docks, fishing & Merchant Ships

    • A often overlooked part of the game by new players, (AoE2 veterans will probably know this), but fishing is actually another fast source of food production, simply getting nearby fish with villagers or investing in a dock and couple fishing ships can give plenty of food for your economy.
    • Just keep in mind, fishing boats are expensive, and most maps won't have much fish, or uncontested fish if enemy ships are patrolling/taking it already. So you should see how much fish you have and build your fishing ships accordingly, the only real exception to this rule is euphrates in disorder, with its utterly insane amount of fish.
    • Merchant ships, generally the same rules that I mentioned earlier apply to merchants as well, keep them far away, keep the route clear.
    • However Merchants ship are bigger than caravans and are really clunky, so it is even more important to keep their routes clear or otherwise if both you and your partner are using a tight merchant trade route, a traffic jam is only a matter of time.
    • Additionally can build a couple docks each, and split production of merchant ships between each dock on each far side, this way could perhaps avoid traffic jams and keep merchant ships spaced apart.

    So overview, Generic economic focuses is your town centres, your market/dock trade routes, storehouse upgrades, whatever build order you do on any civ or legendary quest, these 3 things are absolutely key to having a early efficient start, you should prioritise these on any quests and eventually develop your own build order through these key economic components. (Also always keep in mind key information about each x) )

    Ok that's all, please please please feel free to point anything I've gotten wrong or quote something and reword it better, I will likely use this as a base script for my future video.

    If you would like to help, making a video on one of these top 10 categories, would be very useful for my video, also read out the whole text yourself to see how much time you need to give me to read everything out when making your video displaying a example of what has been mentioned.

    I would like to work on the video tomorrow morning, and maybe finish if possible tomorrow or next week. But depends on help I get :)

    Alright thats all, have a nice weekend everyone~
    Muffins x)



    Gear and Advisors, probably make another video including economic advisors and gear.
     
    #11 MsMuffins, May 25, 2019 at 11:30 AM
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
    Ardeshir likes this.
  12. FinishedBlock21

    FinishedBlock21 Woad Raider

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2018
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Good job pretty detailed guide. I don't know if you plan to give some civ specific tips in another post, but a couple of things are important. For example, persia plays a bit different as it's the only civ with which you'd gather gold with vils early on. As soon as age 3, you need to transfer vils to gold and get paid labor. Also, with babylon you need to start building your gardens asap, I prioritize gardens to second market.
     
  13. MsMuffins

    MsMuffins Long Swordsman

    Joined:
    May 3, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Thanks :D Oooooh interesting, yeah Im thinking of making another video on gear and advisors in terms of economy, and depending on how long each civ takes, be one video or 6 videos. Then could include those as I go along through each civ.

    • Egypt: Isis priestess to buff Town centres and storehouses
    • Greek: Nothing comes to mind
    • Persia: Mine early gold for paid labour villagers
    • Babylon: Prioritise gardens over second market
    • Norse: Nothing comes to mind
    • Celt: Nothing comes to mind
     
    #13 MsMuffins, May 25, 2019 at 5:33 PM
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  14. FinishedBlock21

    FinishedBlock21 Woad Raider

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2018
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    18
    For Celt: train augur asap and use the rite of damara as often as you can to speed up vil production. When you start attacking, use the rite of ratis and you can wreck the enemy base in seconds. Also, rite of andrasta when you're attacking their army rather than their buildings.

    For Norse: Well the obvious, use infantry instead of vils when you can to build production facilities. Also, don't forget to train dogs, extra damage and snare without taking up any pop.

    For Greek the only thing that comes to mind is to somewhat prioritize the philosophy upgrade from the academy.
     
    Ardeshir and MsMuffins like this.
  15. MsMuffins

    MsMuffins Long Swordsman

    Joined:
    May 3, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Thanks x), wow that's quite smart, I never thought of using those upgrades for villagers, I feel dum xD, others do make sense to mention too!, great ideas thanks ^^

    • Egypt: Isis priestess to buff Town centres and storehouses
    • Greek: Academy -> philosophy, quicker upgrades, holds more value the earlier you get it.
    • Persia: Mine early gold for paid labour villagers
    • Babylon: Prioritise gardens over second market
    • Norse: Build with troops instead of villagers generally.
    • Celt: Rite of Damare to speed up villager production.
    (Edited list with FinishedBlock21 ideas)
     
    #15 MsMuffins, May 25, 2019 at 7:42 PM
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  16. Ardeshir

    Ardeshir Hippikon

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2019
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Find out where the AI wants to set up it's trade routes on a given quest. It will continually attempt to set it up around the same spot throwing away villagers and wood. And if the market finishes, you can pick off carts too, just don't let your raid get pulled back into the base.

    Use war dogs to offensively scout on Norse - cheapest unit in the game, and watch towers are half the price of a barracks, as fast as cavalry, no pop, basically the zergling of the game. Again, they're the best throwaway raiders for sniping workers and forcing the AI off a resource, or for antipatrol/antiscout.

    War tented Sparbara (or sparbara+bowman) are an amazing low-tech/low-econ defense with regeneration. Early infantry and ranged pressure should be relatively easy to hold out from with Persia (early cavalry is a different story).

    Reposition your ox carts as Babylonian if you can play fast enough. It can save you having to transfer that extra worker or two from time to time. Be smart with your ox cart numbers and when you add more - you don't want ox carts doing nothing (no workers/1-2workers depositing), but you also want to minimise worker travel time. Likewise, rebuilding storehouses on bigger forests isn't a waste if it's saving several seconds of travel time for every worker.

    Build an extra sacred grove and keep it on a different control group to your military production hotkey if you want to make the best use of sacred deer on celt. Keep the deer production up, but don't max the queue out, and keep looking for native hunts if you're going to utilise the unique food gen. Heading into late game, if you're going to stick with deer you need multiple groves producing them, and several workers, to keep off farms or on minimal farms. Remember to clear berries before using farms at all.

    Muck around with cheaper barracks and barracks unit items and advisors on Egypt. With the access to healing right off the bat in Age 2, you can get a really strong mixed and supported army to defend or push a base quicker and cheaper than the other civs. Just don't throw the priestesses away, and get an armory up behind the push.

    Don't forget unique upgrades and tech. I think we have already covered these things though lol
     
    #16 Ardeshir, May 26, 2019 at 5:42 AM
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
    MsMuffins likes this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice